American election.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:32 am I think it has always been the case that someone's "real journalist" is another's "partisan hack". In Britain at least it is taken for granted, there has never been any doubt that the coverage given to a story depends on the paper...We might rail against it, but that is how the world works.
The point is not to "rail." That would be worthless, obviously.

The point is to know whom you should regard as a "journalist," and whom you should not trust at all. And the answer might be, "You can't trust anyone." But certainly, we should not be believing the MSM, who have been caught red-handed suppressing the truth in order to manipulate the public for their own partisan advantage.
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Re: American election.

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:46 am
tillingborn wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:32 am I think it has always been the case that someone's "real journalist" is another's "partisan hack". In Britain at least it is taken for granted, there has never been any doubt that the coverage given to a story depends on the paper...We might rail against it, but that is how the world works.
The point is not to "rail." That would be worthless, obviously.

The point is to know whom you should regard as a "journalist," and whom you should not trust at all. And the answer might be, "You can't trust anyone." But certainly, we should not be believing the MSM, who have been caught red-handed suppressing the truth in order to manipulate the public for their own partisan advantage.
I don't mean to trivialise it, but it is quite obvious that in a free market, journalists will choose stories and present them in a way that will appeal to a certain audience. It is also transparently obvious that powerful interests will seek to exploit the media, which in a democracy means manipulating the electorate. It is tempting to believe that journalists who say what you want to hear are telling the truth, I know I find it much easier to believe things I already believe, for which reason the answer, as you suggest, is trust no one unconditionally, including oneself.
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henry quirk
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

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tillingborn wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:15 am I don't mean to trivialise it, but it is quite obvious that in a free market, journalists will choose stories and present them in a way that will appeal to a certain audience.
Of course. But "appeal" can be had for both good and bad reasons. A journalist could "appeal" to the public on the basis that his/her information, is more important, more accurate, more fair, more thorough and more urgent than the offerings of others. That's what it used to mean when journalists spoke of "getting a scoop" on the rest -- it meant beating other journalists to the truth, not merely making up wilder, more controversial or more partisan stories than they could.
It is also transparently obvious that powerful interests will seek to exploit the media, which in a democracy means manipulating the electorate.

They will try. That's what democracy is continually fighting to prevent, of course. And needless to say, giving up on fighting that does not lead to better democracy. It leads by the swiftest road to some form of tyranny and exploitation.
It is tempting to believe that journalists who say what you want to hear are telling the truth, I know I find it much easier to believe things I already believe, for which reason the answer, as you suggest, is trust no one unconditionally, including oneself.
The problem is that neither you nor I has time or means to gather all the information we need in order to make informed decisions. And there is a ton of information out there about our public officials that is highly relevant to our democratic decision-making, but which is currently being controlled by unscrupulous media types. We're getting both disinformation and withholding of good information. And you and I can't compensate for the withholding of information by merely being skeptical: because we don't even know the information exists that we are supposed to be practicing our skepticism on. It's entirely hidden from our view.

That's the case with the Biden laptop. The problem was never the credulity of the public, in that case; it was merely that the public had no idea that the thing existed. So their skepticism didn't help them a bit.
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Gary Childress
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Re: American election.

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp

So this is the freedom and "small government" party...martial law, eh. What a crackpot.
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Re: American election.

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:54 pm https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp

So this is the freedom and "small government" party...martial law, eh. What a crackpot.
nah, just a repub
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Re: American election.

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:54 pm https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp

So this is the freedom and "small government" party...martial law, eh. What a crackpot.
nah, just a repub
A pretty pathetic one at that. Martial law? Really??? :shock:
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

At this point, if you believe Plump won, wouldn’t that put you in the minority?
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:20 pm
tillingborn wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:15 am I don't mean to trivialise it, but it is quite obvious that in a free market, journalists will choose stories and present them in a way that will appeal to a certain audience.
Of course. But "appeal" can be had for both good and bad reasons. A journalist could "appeal" to the public on the basis that his/her information, is more important, more accurate, more fair, more thorough and more urgent than the offerings of others. That's what it used to mean when journalists spoke of "getting a scoop" on the rest -- it meant beating other journalists to the truth, not merely making up wilder, more controversial or more partisan stories than they could.
Not wanting to trot out jaded platitudes, I looked into the history of journalism. Admittedly, this only went so far as to read the wikipedia page on History of Journalism, and the links to UK and US. The authors don't seem to have any particular axe to grind, so taking them at their word you could make a case that efforts have been made by some writers to simply inform their readership, but there doesn't seem to have been any period during which the entire industry was working towards that goal. The character of the righteous journalist who wishes only to inform is real enough, but nothing in my scant research suggests they have ever been the majority. It is an ideal we may wish other people to aspire to, but there are a lot of normal human beings in their way.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:20 pm
It is also transparently obvious that powerful interests will seek to exploit the media, which in a democracy means manipulating the electorate.

They will try. That's what democracy is continually fighting to prevent, of course. And needless to say, giving up on fighting that does not lead to better democracy. It leads by the swiftest road to some form of tyranny and exploitation.
I rather think democracy is continually fighting to ensure that people are allowed to express their opinion; it is after all in the 1st Amendment of the US constitution. Take the above example: you could make a case that journalism was once less partisan that today; I could counter that it has always been much of a muchness. It is not in democracies where some one or group decides which is the truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:20 pm
It is tempting to believe that journalists who say what you want to hear are telling the truth, I know I find it much easier to believe things I already believe, for which reason the answer, as you suggest, is trust no one unconditionally, including oneself.
The problem is that neither you nor I has time or means to gather all the information we need in order to make informed decisions. And there is a ton of information out there about our public officials that is highly relevant to our democratic decision-making, but which is currently being controlled by unscrupulous media types. We're getting both disinformation and withholding of good information. And you and I can't compensate for the withholding of information by merely being skeptical: because we don't even know the information exists that we are supposed to be practicing our skepticism on. It's entirely hidden from our view.

That's the case with the Biden laptop. The problem was never the credulity of the public, in that case; it was merely that the public had no idea that the thing existed. So their skepticism didn't help them a bit.
The problem as I see it is that if all news outlets are compelled report the same thing, all you need is one outlet. While we may not like what other people say, or neglect to say, I personally prefer that to the alternative.
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Re: American election.

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:40 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:54 pm https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp

So this is the freedom and "small government" party...martial law, eh. What a crackpot.
nah, just a repub
A pretty pathetic one at that. Martial law? Really??? :shock:
these are politicians...why does anything they (any of 'em) do surprise you?
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Re: American election.

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commonsense wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:00 am At this point, if you believe Plump won, wouldn’t that put you in the minority?
no more or less than believin' smokin' joe & cum-ala won (fair & square)
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:40 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:00 am At this point, if you believe Plump won, wouldn’t that put you in the minority?
no more or less than believin' smokin' joe & cum-ala won (fair & square)
Fair and square in politics. Are you serious?
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Re: American election.

Post by henry quirk »

tillingborn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:59 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:40 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:00 am At this point, if you believe Plump won, wouldn’t that put you in the minority?
no more or less than believin' smokin' joe & cum-ala won (fair & square)
Fair and square in politics. Are you serious?
you bein' rhetorical?
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:40 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:00 am At this point, if you believe Plump won, wouldn’t that put you in the minority?
no more or less than believin' smokin' joe & cum-ala won (fair & square)
No, that would be the majority.
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