More federal US executions in 2020 than the last 56 years.

[Walker]

And furthermore:


Whatever trumps human life dehumanizes human life, whether the trumping agent be:

- death because of dignity,

- death because of punishment,

- or death because of fantasized, science-denying inhumanness.


"Time not important. Only life, important."

[tillingborn]

Most abortions are performed so that the mother's lifestyle is disrupted as little as possible.

Given that you have already stated that logic trumps truth, it is with hope, rather than expectation, that I asked what you base that thought on. I also wonder whether you think the father's lifestyle might not take a knock?

Science says that life begins at conception.

I think science is wily enough not to make such judgements. What do you know about biology that persuades you, and should persuade others, of your beliefs?

[Walker]

The more important point is that because you cannot refute truth, you call it belief, and waste time with silly questions looking to amplify any irrelevancy that you can assert, as a distraction from the truth.

[Walker]

The execution of any citizen is a mark of a failure of society.

Non-citizens take note.

[Lacewing]

sure it is: killin' without good cause is always murder

doesn't matter if the person killed is inside or outside a womb

So stopping the growth of something that doesn't have awareness is murder?

by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

his lil brain is just as capable as yours

Complete bullshit. There's a difference between form and maturity.

how can you say he has no awareness?

What do you think he has awareness of?

I imagine he's dreamin' continuously as he floats inside his ma

What's he dreamin' about, Henry?

what's next, lace? are sleepin' folks not people? can we rub 'em out cuz they aren't conscious?

There's a huge difference between a person who is sleeping and an undeveloped fetus.

Here's the way I look at it...

> If my parents didn't want the little organism to develop that I might eventually inhabit, I would give them permission to choose a different path for their lives. I understand, and it's okay. I do not identify with this body as to think that it's my right or destiny to have it. It's just an organic form.

> If keeping my aging body hooked up just to sustain life (that I'm not enjoying) is going to waste resources for people who could really utilize those resources in much better ways, then I would give them permission to pull the plug. I do not want to be a burden on anyone in such a way.

> If I were to be of such a state of mind as to do terrible things on this planet, such that I was committed to death row, then I would give permission for my excessively destructive and troublesome presence to be removed.

I care about the quality of existence for other people. If I am disabling that quality at any stage of life, I would rather not be here. It's not all about me. It's very simple to me, that way.

So who are you to claim what everyone should want and do?

[Sculptor]

The execution of any citizen is a mark of a failure of society.

Non-citizens take note.

State sponsored killing of any kind is a failure.

Have you ever stopped you childish jingoistic thinking to ask yourself what is the use of a state?
What are its basic jobs?

[tillingborn]

The more important point is that because you cannot refute truth, you call it belief.

Do you mean this? Do you believe that anything that cannot be refuted is the truth?

[henry quirk]

There's a difference between form and maturity.

lil sam is six hours old...his brain doesn't have your maturity...can we off him?


What do you think he has awareness of?

I don't know...do you?


What's he dreamin' about, Henry?

I don't know...do you?


There's a huge difference between a person who is sleeping and an undeveloped fetus.

you know this how?


So who are you to claim what everyone should want and do?

who are you to declare lil fetus person is not a person?

I may be errin' on the side of caution (seein' a person where there is none), but you're errin' on the side of license (declarin' what may be a person is just -- in effect -- a tumor)

[tillingborn]

So what sort of punishment does abortion deserve?

a life for an unjustly taken life

Given that you apparently believe any woman who doesn't commit to full term pregnancy deserves death, do you think she has any post natal duties?

[Lacewing]

There's a difference between form and maturity.

lil sam is six hours old...his brain doesn't have your maturity...can we off him?

Oh, so now he's six hours old... much more fully developed, born into the world, and looking back at us... and this is how you change your argument because your prior argument about a fully developed fetus is idiotic.

What do you think he has awareness of?

I don't know...do you?

Well, considering you can ask any person on this planet what their awareness was prior to being born, I'm guessing there's plenty of evidence that suggests there's no significant awareness at that point in an organism's development!

While you're at it, ask those same people if they would want their parents and everyone else to go through hardship bringing them into this world if the conditions weren't right? Would you want your parents to go through that for you?

What's he dreamin' about, Henry?

I don't know...do you?

You said you imagine he's continuously dreaming. Why do you imagine that?

There's a huge difference between a person who is sleeping and an undeveloped fetus.

you know this how?

It's obvious.

So who are you to claim what everyone should want and do?

who are you to declare lil fetus person is not a person?

I've described my view very clearly. I don't view things the way you do.

You, on the other hand, make illogical claims based on your imaginary beliefs without putting yourself in the other's position.

I may be errin' on the side of caution (seein' a person where there is none), but you're errin' on the side of license (declarin' what may be a person is just -- in effect -- a tumor)

Don't twist what I said. I described how I put myself fully on the receiving end of my views!

Would you demand to be allowed to continue at all costs, regardless of the hardship or risk to other people, if you were a developing fetus, or a withered old man plugged into a machine (with no ability to make your own choice anymore), or an insane serial killer on death row? Or should we go to any length to support you?

[henry quirk]

So what sort of punishment does abortion deserve?

a life for an unjustly taken life

Given that you apparently believe any woman who doesn't commit to full term pregnancy deserves death, do you think she has any post natal duties?

I think ma has the same responsibilities to care for lil fetus person as he's usin' one of her kidneys as a punchin' bag as she does when lil fetus person is out & about & tryin' to lick a wall socket, and -- yeah -- I think ma ought to be subject to the same penalties if she neglects, abuses, or kills lil fetus person as she would be if she neglected, abused, or killed lil fetus person when he's out & about

like the man said: a person is a person, no matter how small

[henry quirk]

a fully developed fetus

I never said jack about a fully developed lil fetus person


I'm guessing there's plenty of evidence that suggests there's no significant awareness at that point in an organism's development!

can you perfectly recollect all your dreams? if not, then I say lace doesn't dream


Would you want your parents to go through that for you?

They did...that they didn't move to rub me, my sister, or my two brothers, out sez sumthin' about them, just as your willingness to rub out a lil fetus person sez sumthin' about you


You said you imagine he's continuously dreaming. Why do you imagine that?

cuz lil fetus guy, floatin' in the dark, growin', is a person


It's obvious.

not so much, no...'splain it to me, lacey


I don't view things the way you do.

yeah, I think I said that up-thread


I described how I put myself fully on the receiving end of my views!

yes, you're very virtuous

-----

how many abortions have you had, lace?

[henry quirk]

Would you demand to be allowed to continue at all costs,

if I'm payin' for it: them machines better stay runnin' till I say otherwise


regardless of the hardship or risk to other people

what hardship?


if you were a developing fetus

if, as a lil fetus person, I had the wherewithal to tell ma, I like to be born, please, I would have


withered old man plugged into a machine (with no ability to make your own choice anymore)

a sensible person prepares for such things...I'm such a man...my wishes about various incapacitations are codified


or an insane serial killer on death row?

if I murder, then I ought to pay the price...just not at the industrial hands of the state


Or should we go to any length to support you?

as I say: if I'm footin' the bill, them machines stay on till I say otherwise

-----

when was your last abortion, lace?

[tillingborn]

I think ma has the same responsibilities to care for lil fetus person as he's usin' one of her kidneys as a punchin' bag as she does when lil fetus person is out & about & tryin' to lick a wall socket, and -- yeah -- I think ma ought to be subject to the same penalties if she neglects, abuses, or kills lil fetus person as she would be if she neglected, abused, or killed lil fetus person when he's out & about

like the man said: a person is a person, no matter how small

Given that no form of contraception is 100% effective, should women who do not wish to become pregnant abstain from sex?

[Skepdick]

So what sort of punishment does abortion deserve?

So what sort of punishment does punishing abortion deserve?

Do you think I should answer that?

I don't know. Should you?