Debate: Did Muhammad Exist [Real or Myth]?

[Veritas Aequitas]

Here is an interesting debate between David Wood and Jay Smith on the question whether Muhammad was real person [Wood] or was a Myth [Smith].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_0LVbc3jY

Whilst both debaters are Christians, what is relevant here are the facts, evidence and argument they had presented.

I assured those who listen to their opening statements will learn a lot about the origins of Islam.

Personally I believe the Story of Muhammad is a myth invented by a group of people who exploited the desperate existential crisis and soteriological needs of the masses for their selfish political reasons.

Views?

[attofishpi]

Views?

Did MorHamMad exist?

Probably.

Did MorHamMad profit?

Probably.

Did MorHamMad have NE thing to do with God?

I seriously doubt it, beyond being a rather ridiculous human.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Of course he existed. He died not that long ago of Parkinsons disease. Sad.

[Skip]

Personally I believe the Story of Muhammad is a myth invented by a group of people who exploited the desperate existential crisis and soteriological needs of the masses for their selfish political reasons.

Which group of people did the inventing? In which year? What were their names and nationality/ies?
Would the historical events have been different whether the mythology originates from a single individual or a committee?
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad

[Veritas Aequitas]

Personally I believe the Story of Muhammad is a myth invented by a group of people who exploited the desperate existential crisis and soteriological needs of the masses for their selfish political reasons.

Which group of people did the inventing? In which year? What were their names and nationality/ies?
Would the historical events have been different whether the mythology originates from a single individual or a committee?
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad

Muslims had been claiming the Muhammad of Islam was a real person and all the events [especially receiving revelations from Allah] attributed to him in the stated historical times are real.

However the following circumstance evidences do not support the story of Muhammad of Islam as the real person he is described in the Quran, Sira [biography] and the Ahadiths [sayings of Muhammad].

1. God does not exist. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704
This is already a give away that there was a real Muhammad who had received divine revelations from Allah via Gabriel.

2. The biography was written by Ibn Ishaq more than 100 years and Ibn Hisham >150 years after the death of Muhammad. Thus what they relied upon are hearsays which are not credible.
I omitted the link, take a look at the various timelines in video
https://youtu.be/Zd_0LVbc3jY?t=1877

3. The sayings [Ahadith] of Muhammad were written >200 years after the death of Muhammad and all the authors were living >1800 km from Mecca.

4. The existence of Mecca as portrayed in the Muhammad story did not exist during the times stated.

5. Uthman ibn Affan [3rd Caliph] Born into a prominent Meccan clan, Banu Umayya of the Quraysh tribe, he played a major role in early Islamic history, and is known for having ordered the compilation of the standard version of the Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman

6. It is likely the Quran was compiled a group of men under the order of Uthman the 3rd Caliph and it from him that Islam set out to conquer vast lands accompanied by terrible evils and violence committed upon non-Muslims in accordance to the supposedly commands of Allah.

It does not matter whether it is written by an individual or committee if what is written can be verified empirically or by other credible means.
In the case of the Sira /biography of Muhammad of Islam, there are no solid evidences to support what is written is real.

[Skip]

Muslims had been claiming the Muhammad of Islam was a real person and all the events [especially receiving revelations from Allah] attributed to him in the stated historical times are real.

Yeah. It's a religion.

1. God does not exist.

Tell it to the Jews and the Christians. That's where Muhammad got the idea of a single god, the archangel Gabriel as his messenger, and the need for a unifying gospel, which he proceeded to write.

2. The biography was written by Ibn Ishaq more than 100 years and Ibn Hisham >150 years after the death of Muhammad. Thus what they relied upon are hearsays which are not credible.
Muslims had been claiming the Muhammad of Islam was a real person and all the events [especially receiving revelations from Allah] attributed to him in the stated historical times are real.

So what? The New testament wasn't completed until nearly 300 years after, and 4000km from where the putative Jesus was allegedly killed.

4. The existence of Mecca as portrayed in the Muhammad story did not exist during the times stated.

The town existed for 400 years or so before he made it important. Medina's a thousand years older.

5. Uthman ibn Affan [3rd Caliph] Born into a prominent Meccan clan, Banu Umayya of the Quraysh tribe, he played a major role in early Islamic history, and is known for having ordered the compilation of the standard version of the Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman

Emperor Constatine I, born into a prominent Roman family, played a major role in Christian history, convened the Council of Nicea in AD 325. There were 300-odd clerics involved in the compilation, editing, translation and re-writing of the Bible.
Why is this a problem?

It does not matter whether it is written by an individual or committee if what is written can be verified empirically or by other credible means. In the case of the Sira /biography of Muhammad of Islam, there are no solid evidences to support what is written is real.

You seem unusually reluctant to come to terms with this essential aspect of religion --
but only as regards one particular religion. One might almost suspect a bias.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Muslims had been claiming the Muhammad of Islam was a real person and all the events [especially receiving revelations from Allah] attributed to him in the stated historical times are real.

Yeah. It's a religion.

1. God does not exist.

Tell it to the Jews and the Christians. That's where Muhammad got the idea of a single god, the archangel Gabriel as his messenger, and the need for a unifying gospel, which he proceeded to write.

God does not exist is applicable to all theists including Jews and Christians.
As such the Jesus of the Bible is obviously a myth just as the Story of Muhammad of Islam is a myth.

2. The biography was written by Ibn Ishaq more than 100 years and Ibn Hisham >150 years after the death of Muhammad. Thus what they relied upon are hearsays which are not credible.
Muslims had been claiming the Muhammad of Islam was a real person and all the events [especially receiving revelations from Allah] attributed to him in the stated historical times are real.

So what? The New testament wasn't completed until nearly 300 years after, and 4000km from where the putative Jesus was allegedly killed.

Since both holy texts were written hundreds of years after the supposed death of their founders/prophets, the story of both Jesus and Muhammad cannot be credible, thus are most probable to be myths.

4. The existence of Mecca as portrayed in the Muhammad story did not exist during the times stated.

The town existed for 400 years or so before he made it important. Medina's a thousand years older.

There are loads of research that prove Mecca of the Quran did not exist during Muhammad's time.
The contentions it the city known as "Mecca" where Muhammad preached was actually

• Archaeological evidence: Mecca Was Petra - the pagan origin of Islam.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAkExcItlo
  
  Mecca & Kaabah did not exist before 400 A.D.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ5AuXMYStk&app=desktop
  
  The Sacred City of Mecca: Have We Got It Wrong?
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIw1OPH6QvM
  The Sacred City presents compelling evidence that suggests the holy city of Mecca is in the wrong location and that the worlds 1.6 billion Muslims are praying in the direction of the wrong city. Compiling evidence from both historic sources and new technologies point to the correct location in this seismic, revelatory new film.

The mess above indicate the Quran was compiled by a group of men then and there was no real Muhammad as portrayed in the Quran, Siar and Ahadiths.

5. Uthman ibn Affan [3rd Caliph] Born into a prominent Meccan clan, Banu Umayya of the Quraysh tribe, he played a major role in early Islamic history, and is known for having ordered the compilation of the standard version of the Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman

Emperor Constatine I, born into a prominent Roman family, played a major role in Christian history, convened the Council of Nicea in AD 325. There were 300-odd clerics involved in the compilation, editing, translation and re-writing of the Bible.
Why is this a problem?

Why change the topic?
My points and argument is to show that Muhammad of Islam is a myth.

It does not matter whether it is written by an individual or committee if what is written can be verified empirically or by other credible means. In the case of the Sira /biography of Muhammad of Islam, there are no solid evidences to support what is written is real.

You seem unusually reluctant to come to terms with this essential aspect of religion --
but only as regards one particular religion. One might almost suspect a bias.

Note the OP and I am sticking to topic.

Your intuition on why I am focus on one religion is somehow right.
The reason is Islam is the only religion at present where its Allah via the Quran commands All Muslims to kill non-Muslims upon the slightest threats [fasadin in 5:33] to the religion of Islam, i.e. even to the extreme of the drawing of cartoons.

My supporting is this stats of empirical evidences [subject to minor refinements], but the effective results are very terrible evil and violence therein;


The Quran is claimed to the direct and PERFECT [verbatim] revelation from Allah. The Quran contain loads of evil elements in [54% of the 6236 verses] which compels Muslims to kill and harm non-Muslim upon the slightest threats.

The Muhammad as portrayed in the Quran, Sira and Ahadith is claimed to be a real person and recommended by Allah as an exemplar for all Muslims. This 'Muhammad' carried out terrible evil and violence acts against non-Muslims which many Muslims had followed and carried out what Muhammad had done to non-Muslims.

The OT of the Jews has more evil elements than the Quran, but somehow the Jews are not killing non-Jews around the world but rather are victims of anti-semitism.
The rest of the other major religions has an overriding pacifist maxim, thus no opportunity for the evil prone believers to exploit their respective doctrine to justify their evil acts.

As a concerned citizen of humanity, I have to contribute something, if not physical, at least critique Islam on an objective basis.
If you are indifferent and do nothing, you are indirectly enabling more evil and violent acts by evil prone Muslims towards the future.

[Skip]

Okay. Carry on bashing.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Okay. Carry on bashing.

Just in case, note my thread;
Do Not Bash Muslims, even the evil ones;
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24842

Rather, as any concerned citizen of humanity we must critique severely ideologies that are evil laden, e.g. Islam and others.

[Skip]

Rather, as any concerned citizen of humanity we must critique severely ideologies that are evil laden, e.g. Islam and others.

Cool. Which others?

[Veritas Aequitas]

Rather, as any concerned citizen of humanity we must critique severely ideologies that are evil laden, e.g. Islam and others.

Cool. Which others?

The OP topic is about Islam but just to mention, others would include whatever evil ideologies that exist out there, e.g. those of cults, dictatorial and authoritarian ideologies, those evil ideologies of the extreme right and left, and whatever ideology that promote evil and violence to achieve their objectives.

[Skip]

The OP topic is about Islam but just to mention, others would include whatever evil ideologies that exist out there, e.g. those of cults, dictatorial and authoritarian ideologies, those evil ideologies of the extreme right and left, and whatever ideology that promote evil and violence to achieve their objectives.

Don't be bashful! List them! Then explain the science of rehabilitating their deluded practitioners.

[Veritas Aequitas]

The OP topic is about Islam but just to mention, others would include whatever evil ideologies that exist out there, e.g. those of cults, dictatorial and authoritarian ideologies, those evil ideologies of the extreme right and left, and whatever ideology that promote evil and violence to achieve their objectives.

Don't be bashful! List them! Then explain the science of rehabilitating their deluded practitioners.

I believe it is sufficient in here to state all evil ideologies must be addressed and resolved in the future.
It is too complex to address the details here.

[Skip]

I believe it is sufficient in here to state all evil ideologies must be addressed and resolved in the future.
It is too complex to address the details here.

And yet you managed so very much detail regarding your stance on Islam! Picky-choosy, some?

[henry quirk]

Personally I believe the Story of Muhammad is a myth invented by a group of people who exploited the desperate existential crisis and soteriological needs of the masses for their selfish political reasons.

why would anyone make up a schizophrenic pedophile as hero-savior?

myth-makin' tends to produce larger than life characters, not celebrate small insane deviants

I think the scumbag was real