American election.

[Immanuel Can]

But if you doubt me, here it is: https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

To be honest, I don't see anything on the website to be incredibly alarmed about. They talk about sustainable energy, global inequality and things like that--all good things to talk about.

It doesn't concern you to see leaders of states and leaders of business celebrating COVID-19 as an opportunity for them to force social change on people? Interesting. I find myself very alarmed by their barely-suppressed elation that the crisis of a magnitude they can use to advance their agenda seems to be upon us. And if it's not quite big enough, they're willing to make it bigger: with more fear-mongering, a longer lockdown, more economic austerity...because the more miserable you become, the more willing you'll be for radical change.

Granted it's a bunch of uber-wealthy people trying to make themselves feel good by thinking they support progressive ideals but in the end, they're mostly probably just paying lip service.

Indeed it is. But it seems to be a great deal more than lip service. They actually want to do this thing.

They want Capitalism and inequity to thrive as much as anyone because a Socialist economy would mean taking away their wealth and redistributing it and giving more power to ordinary people in the decision-making process of their respective nations.

Oh, you poor lad.

Do you not know? Socialism is for the proles. It's got nothing to do with the elite.

Of course you're right: they're uber-wealthy and definitely intending to stay that way. But what they want control of is YOU. This is about power...for them. What you get is the Socialism bit. What they get is your total dependence on them, and all your possessions no longer being your own. They get you to become incapable of resisting whatever it is they have planned for you next. They rule, you and you dance to their Socialist tune.

You're the cow they're going to milk.

[Gary Childress]

But if you doubt me, here it is: https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

To be honest, I don't see anything on the website to be incredibly alarmed about. They talk about sustainable energy, global inequality and things like that--all good things to talk about.

It doesn't concern you to see leaders of states and leaders of business celebrating COVID-19 as an opportunity for them to force social change on people? Interesting. I find myself very alarmed by their barely-suppressed elation that the crisis of a magnitude they can use to advance their agenda seems to be upon us. And if it's not quite big enough, they're willing to make it bigger: with more fear-mongering, a longer lockdown, more economic austerity...because the more miserable you become, the more willing you'll be for radical change.

Granted it's a bunch of uber-wealthy people trying to make themselves feel good by thinking they support progressive ideals but in the end, they're mostly probably just paying lip service.

Indeed it is. But it seems to be a great deal more than lip service. They actually want to do this thing.

They want Capitalism and inequity to thrive as much as anyone because a Socialist economy would mean taking away their wealth and redistributing it and giving more power to ordinary people in the decision-making process of their respective nations.

Oh, you poor lad.

Do you not know? Socialism is for the proles. It's got nothing to do with the elite.

Of course you're right: they're uber-wealthy and definitely intending to stay that way. But what they want control of is YOU. This is about power...for them. What you get is the Socialism bit. What they get is your total dependence on them, and all your possessions no longer being your own. They get you to become incapable of resisting whatever it is they have planned for you next. They rule, you and you dance to their Socialist tune.

You're the cow they're going to milk.

An interesting difference of interpretation, I suppose. So what you see are people wanting to impose socialism on the masses while practicing capitalism for themselves.

I agree that they would never, themselves practice socialism because it would be the end of their wealth and power. However, what if those same leaders said, "we want to support unsustainable energy and inequity"? Would you be happier if they espoused that? Would you say they were doing the right thing in that case? Or what could those wealthy individuals profess at their next conference that would make you happy and less distrustful of them?

BTW: I didn't see any call for "Socialism" on that website, where did you see a case being made for socialism?

[Gary Childress]

Or put another way, what would you rather see those wealthy individuals professing at their next conference?

[Immanuel Can]

An interesting difference of interpretation, I suppose. So what you see are people wanting to impose socialism on the masses while practicing capitalism for themselves.

Not "capitalism." Take a look at the big tech companies, who are all on board with this. What they want is not competition or free markets, it's monopolies and large, lucrative, government-issued contracts for themselves. They have no interest in capitalism.

I agree that they would never, themselves practice socialism because it would be the end of their wealth and power.

Then you've got to ask yourself this: why would these people, who clearly have no personal stake in Socialism and don't want it for themselves, be advocating it so ardently for us?

However, what if those same leaders said, "we want to support unsustainable energy and inequity"? Would you be happier if they espoused that?

But that's not what they're saying, Gary. So again, you've got to ask why. Who benefits here? As always, follow the money...

Or what could those wealthy individuals profess at their next conference that would make you happy and less distrustful of them?

If they divest themselves of all their assets, in the name of the Socialism they claim to espouse, break the big-tech monopolies, divest themselves of power and submit themselves to the electorate, I would have some confidence they mean to be "for the people," for "equality" and for Socialism. Right now, I think their posture, given their personal advantages, is nothing close to credible.

Why would we trust the uber-wealthy to lead us into a Socialist utopia?

BTW: I didn't see any call for "Socialism" on that website, where did you see a case being made for socialism?

Oh, don't worry: it's there, and it's not close to subtle. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/ ... ce-centre/

[Gary Childress]

An interesting difference of interpretation, I suppose. So what you see are people wanting to impose socialism on the masses while practicing capitalism for themselves.

Not "capitalism." Take a look at the big tech companies, who are all on board with this. What they want is not competition or free markets, it's monopolies and large, lucrative, government-issued contracts for themselves. They have no interest in capitalism.

I agree that they would never, themselves practice socialism because it would be the end of their wealth and power.

Then you've got to ask yourself this: why would these people, who clearly have no personal stake in Socialism and don't want it for themselves, be advocating it so ardently for us?

However, what if those same leaders said, "we want to support unsustainable energy and inequity"? Would you be happier if they espoused that?

But that's not what they're saying, Gary. So again, you've got to ask why. Who benefits here? As always, follow the money...

Or what could those wealthy individuals profess at their next conference that would make you happy and less distrustful of them?

If they divest themselves of all their assets, in the name of the Socialism they claim to espouse, break the big-tech monopolies, divest themselves of power and submit themselves to the electorate, I would have some confidence they mean to be "for the people," for "equality" and for Socialism. Right now, I think their posture, given their personal advantages, is nothing close to credible.

Why would we trust the uber-wealthy to lead us into a Socialist utopia?

BTW: I didn't see any call for "Socialism" on that website, where did you see a case being made for socialism?

Oh, don't worry: it's there, and it's not close to subtle. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/ ... ce-centre/

So what you don't like is that they want to merge capitalism and socialism. You believe that straight capitalism is the best answer. Is that correct? Or are you also saying that wanting "social justice", "sustainable energy" and more economic equality is also equally the wrong answer?

I mean, the issue to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be that there is a lot of inequity and unsustainable energy consumption practices in the world and that we need to do something about it. The uber-wealthy realize this. They can't hide it. However, instead of succumbing to socialism for everyone (including themselves), they think that socialism for the masses and capitalism for themselves is the best way to prevent economic and cultural breakdown. I would say just the opposite. I would say that socialism for the elite and capitalism for average people would be better. In other words, socialism would be for the elite, to redistribute their wealth and power; and capitalism would be fine for small businesses and entrepreneurs. but if the small businesses reach the point of monopoly or uber-wealth, then, sure, redistribute that wealth so that it isn't concentrated in the hands of a few, allowing them inordinate power. Indeed, use the uber wealth to create whatever safety nets are necessary for the poor.

So you seem to see any socialism at all as wrong. I just see them as having it all backward.

[Nick_A]

The great reset is socialism.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-envi ... al-plan-to

Although many details about the Great Reset won’t be rolled out until the World Economic Forum meets in Davos in January 2021, the general principles of the plan are clear: The world needs massive new government programs and far-reaching policies comparable to those offered by American socialists such as Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) in their Green New Deal plan.

Or, put another way, we need a form of socialism — a word the World Economic Forum has deliberately avoided using, all while calling for countless socialist and progressive plans.

“We need to design policies to align with investment in people and the environment,” said the general secretary of the International Trade Union Confederation, Sharan Burrow. “But above all, the longer-term perspective is about rebalancing economies.”

One of the main themes of the June meeting was that the coronavirus pandemic has created an important “opportunity” for many of the World Economic Forum’s members to enact their radical transformation of capitalism, which they acknowledged would likely not have been made possible without the pandemic.

What is wrong with controlling people by their fear of a pandemic? Why doesn't socialism work? If you know that, the dangerous foolishness of the great reset will become obvious.

[Immanuel Can]

So what you don't like is that they want to merge capitalism and socialism.

"Merge"? Are you buying that? Can I sell you some beautiful cottage land in Florida?

What they want is to make the Socialism part sound acceptable to all. Nothing they describe suggests free markets or competition, that's for sure.

Look at it this way, Gary. I haven't known you very long, but a person would have to be blind not to see you're a nice guy with a big heart. So if I'm a weasel, how am I going to get you to play ball my way?

I'll tell you how. I'm going to press all the buttons that tug your heartstrings. I'm going to tell you I'm for fairness, for the environment, for the poor, for equality, for justice, for health, for the end of racism, for hope, and for the greater social good in every way; then I'm going to tell you that if you really love those things the way I do, you'll let me do my program on you. Of course, my program can be anything that suits me. So long as I can convince you that loving those things means supporting me, I can get you to come on board, because you're a nice guy.

So you've got to be aware that the test for somebody who cares about these things in reality lives a life that prioritizes these things. If I'm a rich, self-motivated, power hungry elitist, then you've got to be suspicious when I trot out the social justice talking points. Maybe, just maybe, my life is putting the lie to what I'm telling you I'm all about.

Now, isn't that just possible?

I mean, the issue to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be that there is a lot of inequity and unsustainable energy consumption practices in the world and that we need to do something about it.

Absolutely. And there's a whole lot of far worse things. There's an absolutely wicked set of practices regarding food distribution, or medical extortion, or the buying up of countries' precious resources by totalitarian countries, and the child slavery and pornography and sex-slave industries, and infanticide...all kinds of awful things. You and I, who are NOT doing those things, want all that to stop.

The uber-wealthy realize this.

Careful. Yes, of course they do. And some of them share our opinion. But some of them are beneficiaries and perpetrators of these evil tactics, and some of them are users of these tactics. And all of them have a lot of money that, if they believed in Socialism, would be the first thing they'd be distributing to the poor and needy...

They can't hide it. However, instead of succumbing to socialism for everyone (including themselves), they think that socialism for the masses and capitalism for themselves is the best way to prevent economic and cultural breakdown.

Again, they don't want capitalism. They don't want competition and free markets; those do not suit their aim of centralizing power in themselves. Moreover, they don't really care about YOUR economic and cultural breakdown. They are quite gleeful that the world economy is tanking on the COVID lockdown, remember? This is their "golden opportunity" that they say they simply "cannot miss."

I would say just the opposite. I would say that socialism for the elite and capitalism for average people would be better.

Not for the elite, it wouldn't be. That's why they want the Socialism to be yours. They want you loosing your grip on your money and property, so they can move it around. If it remained yours, they couldn't.

In other words, socialism would be for the elite, to redistribute their wealth and power; and capitalism would be fine for small businesses and entrepreneurs. but if the small businesses reach the point of monopoly or uber-wealth, then, sure, redistribute that wealth so that it isn't concentrated in the hands of a few, allowing them inordinate power. Indeed, use the uber wealth to create whatever safety nets are necessary for the poor.

This is typical of you, Gary...you're a good-hearted guy. And in theory, I don't disagree that this would be great. But here's the million-dollar question: is that what The Great Reset is actually offering?

So you seem to see any socialism at all as wrong.

Well, it depends what is meant by "socialism," Gary. If it comes with a small "s," meaning that very limited sectors of the economy are run by a very controlled government, then I'm actually fine with it. That will annoy some of my more libertarian friends, but I'm okay with a reasonable socialism. What is deadly is big-S "Socialism," the total ideology, the running of great swaths of the economy by Socialist ideology, or worse, the taking over of all things by Socialist ideology. In every case, that's been an economic and human rights disaster.

And here's the secret: if humankind were all good, and there was no evil in the world, then perhaps we could turn our governance over to a trusted bunch of other people, our politicians, centralize power in their hands, and they would run things for our good. Unfortunately, that's not at all the world we live in. We live in a world where everybody is flawed, everybody has some potential and even some actual evil in them, everyone is essentially corruptible, but certain people are really genuinely selfish, sociopathic, greedy and wicked, and just don't care.

What Socialism (large "S") does is to allow those nasty people to rise to the top, where they find everything centralized in a single government, and all the people equally powerless to resist what they want to do. Then they inevitably do it. And the bodies start to fall. And that combo has actually been, by orders of magnitude, the most homicidal mistake in human history.

It's hard for the nice guys of the world, like you, Gary, to comprehend that anybody would be that way. Unfortunately, history shows they really are. So the idea behind Socialism might be noble in another world, but in this one, it's a disaster. It surrenders central control to the wicked.

Fair enough?

[Gary Childress]

The great reset is socialism.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-envi ... al-plan-to

Although many details about the Great Reset won’t be rolled out until the World Economic Forum meets in Davos in January 2021, the general principles of the plan are clear: The world needs massive new government programs and far-reaching policies comparable to those offered by American socialists such as Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) in their Green New Deal plan.

Or, put another way, we need a form of socialism — a word the World Economic Forum has deliberately avoided using, all while calling for countless socialist and progressive plans.

“We need to design policies to align with investment in people and the environment,” said the general secretary of the International Trade Union Confederation, Sharan Burrow. “But above all, the longer-term perspective is about rebalancing economies.”

One of the main themes of the June meeting was that the coronavirus pandemic has created an important “opportunity” for many of the World Economic Forum’s members to enact their radical transformation of capitalism, which they acknowledged would likely not have been made possible without the pandemic.

What is wrong with controlling people by their fear of a pandemic? Why doesn't socialism work? If you know that, the dangerous foolishness of the great reset will become obvious.

So the uber-wealthy want socialism which would redistribute their wealth? Why would they want to do that? It sort of looks like they would be the last to want their wealth and power diminished. My take is that they can't hide the fact that they are uber-wealthy, sticking out like sore thumbs and the pandemic is showing how capitalism in medical care is losing to Covid and so they are calling for redistribution to placate the masses. Will they truly redistribute their wealth and power? I would sort of doubt it. And certainly, The Hill doesn't appear to want them to, judging from the opinion piece you posted.

[Gary Childress]

So what you don't like is that they want to merge capitalism and socialism.

"Merge"? Are you buying that? Can I sell you some beautiful cottage land in Florida?

What they want is to make the Socialism part sound acceptable to all. Nothing they describe suggests free markets or competition, that's for sure.

Look at it this way, Gary. I haven't known you very long, but a person would have to be blind not to see you're a nice guy with a big heart. So if I'm a weasel, how am I going to get you to play ball my way?

I'll tell you how. I'm going to press all the buttons that tug your heartstrings. I'm going to tell you I'm for fairness, for the environment, for the poor, for equality, for justice, for health, for the end of racism, for hope, and for the greater social good in every way; then I'm going to tell you that if you really love those things the way I do, you'll let me do my program on you. Of course, my program can be anything that suits me. So long as I can convince you that loving those things means supporting me, I can get you to come on board, because you're a nice guy.

So you've got to be aware that the test for somebody who cares about these things in reality lives a life that prioritizes these things. If I'm a rich, self-motivated, power hungry elitist, then you've got to be suspicious when I trot out the social justice talking points. Maybe, just maybe, my life is putting the lie to what I'm telling you I'm all about.

Now, isn't that just possible?

I mean, the issue to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be that there is a lot of inequity and unsustainable energy consumption practices in the world and that we need to do something about it.

Absolutely. And there's a whole lot of far worse things. There's an absolutely wicked set of practices regarding food distribution, or medical extortion, or the buying up of countries' precious resources by totalitarian countries, and the child slavery and pornography and sex-slave industries, and infanticide...all kinds of awful things. You and I, who are NOT doing those things, want all that to stop.

The uber-wealthy realize this.

Careful. Yes, of course they do. And some of them share our opinion. But some of them are beneficiaries and perpetrators of these evil tactics, and some of them are users of these tactics. And all of them have a lot of money that, if they believed in Socialism, would be the first thing they'd be distributing to the poor and needy...

They can't hide it. However, instead of succumbing to socialism for everyone (including themselves), they think that socialism for the masses and capitalism for themselves is the best way to prevent economic and cultural breakdown.

Again, they don't want capitalism. They don't want competition and free markets; those do not suit their aim of centralizing power in themselves. Moreover, they don't really care about YOUR economic and cultural breakdown. They are quite gleeful that the world economy is tanking on the COVID lockdown, remember? This is their "golden opportunity" that they say they simply "cannot miss."

I would say just the opposite. I would say that socialism for the elite and capitalism for average people would be better.

Not for the elite, it wouldn't be. That's why they want the Socialism to be yours. They want you loosing your grip on your money and property, so they can move it around. If it remained yours, they couldn't.

In other words, socialism would be for the elite, to redistribute their wealth and power; and capitalism would be fine for small businesses and entrepreneurs. but if the small businesses reach the point of monopoly or uber-wealth, then, sure, redistribute that wealth so that it isn't concentrated in the hands of a few, allowing them inordinate power. Indeed, use the uber wealth to create whatever safety nets are necessary for the poor.

This is typical of you, Gary...you're a good-hearted guy. And in theory, I don't disagree that this would be great. But here's the million-dollar question: is that what The Great Reset is actually offering?

So you seem to see any socialism at all as wrong.

Well, it depends what is meant by "socialism," Gary. If it comes with a small "s," meaning that very limited sectors of the economy are run by a very controlled government, then I'm actually fine with it. That will annoy some of my more libertarian friends, but I'm okay with a reasonable socialism. What is deadly is big-S "Socialism," the total ideology, the running of great swaths of the economy by Socialist ideology, or worse, the taking over of all things by Socialist ideology. In every case, that's been an economic and human rights disaster.

And here's the secret: if humankind were all good, and there was no evil in the world, then perhaps we could turn our governance over to a trusted bunch of other people, our politicians, centralize power in their hands, and they would run things for our good. Unfortunately, that's not at all the world we live in. We live in a world where everybody is flawed, everybody has some potential and even some actual evil in them, everyone is essentially corruptible, but certain people are really genuinely selfish, sociopathic, greedy and wicked, and just don't care.

What Socialism (large "S") does is to allow those nasty people to rise to the top, where they find everything centralized in a single government, and all the people equally powerless to resist what they want to do. Then they inevitably do it. And the bodies start to fall. And that combo has actually been, by orders of magnitude, the most homicidal mistake in human history.

It's hard for the nice guys of the world, like you, Gary, to comprehend that anybody would be that way. Unfortunately, history shows they really are. So the idea behind Socialism might be noble in another world, but in this one, it's a disaster. It surrenders central control to the wicked.

Fair enough?

Hmm. Well, I suppose you have some points there. A lot of governments that have called themselves socialist have been pretty awful. Maybe I need to stop listening to Noam Chomsky. He seems to have it all backward.

[attofishpi]

BLACK LIVES TRULY DO MATTER!


90% of the 'black' vote went to Biden.

So the entire REST of the (intelligent) world can sigh in relief that those that were once worked to their bones, just DITCHED another white piece of crap megalomaniac.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

BLACK LIVES TRULY DO MATTER!


90% of the 'black' vote went to Biden.

So the entire REST of the (intelligent) world can sigh in relief that those that were once worked to their bones, just DITCHED another white piece of crap megalomaniac.

I expect the wokies here to get on your case for 'categorising' people as 'black'. (I won't be holding my breath though).
Who the hell cares what colour voters are? How fucking racist.

[attofishpi]

BLACK LIVES TRULY DO MATTER!


90% of the 'black' vote went to Biden.

So the entire REST of the (intelligent) world can sigh in relief that those that were once worked to their bones, just DITCHED another white piece of crap megalomaniac.

I expect the wokies here to get on your case for 'categorising' people as 'black'. (I won't be holding my breath though).
Who the hell cares what colour voters are? How fucking racist.

That is fucking hilarious synchronicity right there - go check the other thread where I just compared U to a racist for labeling people! (as in wokies)

I stated 'black' - that is how most of them see themselves - I don't agree with it, hence the quotes - I have already stated on this forum - I HAVE NEVER MET A BLACK PERSON OR A WHITE PERSON.

[Immanuel Can]

Hmm. Well, I suppose you have some points there. A lot of governments that have called themselves socialist have been pretty awful. Maybe I need to stop listening to Noam Chomsky. He seems to have it all backward.

Chomsky has some good things. His theory of semantics, for example, was ground-breaking. But about Socialism, he's been repeatedly naive. There's nothing terribly unusual about a smart man being not-so-smart in another area...no one is truly brilliant in everything.

The big point, I would say, is this: judge those who lead by what they DO, not what they SAY. Promises are cheap...commitment of their own resources and prestige is expensive. Judge them by what they will do before they call upon you to do your bit.

It sounds a bit like "By their fruit you shall know them"; and that's exactly what it is.

[Gary Childress]

Hmm. Well, I suppose you have some points there. A lot of governments that have called themselves socialist have been pretty awful. Maybe I need to stop listening to Noam Chomsky. He seems to have it all backward.

Chomsky has some good things. His theory of semantics, for example, was ground-breaking. But about Socialism, he's been repeatedly naive. There's nothing terribly unusual about a smart man being not-so-smart in another area...no one is truly brilliant in everything.

The big point, I would say, is this: judge those who lead by what they DO, not what they SAY. Promises are cheap...commitment of their own resources and prestige is expensive. Judge them by what they will do before they call upon you to do your bit.

It sounds a bit like "By their fruit you shall know them"; and that's exactly what it is.

Apparently, he thinks climate denial and pushing petroleum consumption ought to be considered high crimes against humanity and Trump is outright evil. I hope for everyone's sake he is wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Ix-bNmudk

[henry quirk]

part of the trick is gettin' folks flummoxed over words like socialism or capitalism

a lotta of time is wasted dickerin' over defintions, over what is or isn't

strip away all the bullshit

it's not about socialism or capitalism

it's, as I say, about free men vs slavers

the free men wanna be left alone to live, to transact, to compete & cooperate

the slavers wanna direct the livin', the transactin', the competin' & cooperatin'