Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

Post by Immanuel Can »

KLewchuk wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:39 am LOL, my undergraduate degree was in exegetical theology; could struggle through the NT in Greek at one point.
Then you must have some idea of the connotations of faith (πίστις) in context. And if you know the text, you also know I'm right about the fact that it's always associated with a specific person or set of truths. It's not gratuitous belief at all. So it's got to make you wonder why some folks are at such pains to misrepresent it.

On the other hand, that you have an undergrad in exegesis is interesting. It's not exactly the kind of degree somebody who doesn't like "religion" is likely to take, is it? Is there a story there? Is there a specific reason you chose that degree? And if you cared about it enough at one time to devote four years to studying theology, what happened to change that?

Just interested.
I am not approaching the topic within a certain "faith community" but rather how the concept is commonly understood.

Well, of course, the problem with that is that it's not "commonly understood" at all. It's commonly "misunderstood," especially among Atheists, who, as I say, have a strong stake in misrepresenting the concept, but also among those who know little about it, and just think it must mean something equivalent to "superstition" or something.
If you say that rational beliefs are "good faith" and beliefs based on insufficient evidence are "bad faith". OK, we can then move on to what constitutes sufficient evidence.
I do.

What do you want to say about "sufficient evidence"?
KLewchuk
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

Post by KLewchuk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:32 am
KLewchuk wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:39 am LOL, my undergraduate degree was in exegetical theology; could struggle through the NT in Greek at one point.
Then you must have some idea of the connotations of faith (πίστις) in context. And if you know the text, you also know I'm right about the fact that it's always associated with a specific person or set of truths. It's not gratuitous belief at all. So it's got to make you wonder why some folks are at such pains to misrepresent it.

On the other hand, that you have an undergrad in exegesis is interesting. It's not exactly the kind of degree somebody who doesn't like "religion" is likely to take, is it? Is there a story there? Is there a specific reason you chose that degree? And if you cared about it enough at one time to devote four years to studying theology, what happened to change that?

Just interested.
I am not approaching the topic within a certain "faith community" but rather how the concept is commonly understood.

Well, of course, the problem with that is that it's not "commonly understood" at all. It's commonly "misunderstood," especially among Atheists, who, as I say, have a strong stake in misrepresenting the concept, but also among those who know little about it, and just think it must mean something equivalent to "superstition" or something.
If you say that rational beliefs are "good faith" and beliefs based on insufficient evidence are "bad faith". OK, we can then move on to what constitutes sufficient evidence.
I do.

What do you want to say about "sufficient evidence"?
Nothing, my interests have widened (i.e. exegesis doesn't interest me much anymore,) but the study of ethics and religious experience does (e.g. think Christian mystics)... occasionally some philosophy of religion / metaphysics but there is only so much time in the day.

Assertions that the Bible is inerrant, inspired, authoritative, etc., does not stand up to any rational inquiry. In fact, some Christian denominations have discarded this notion long ago and they are far from "atheists". Again, I point to Ehrman as a great expositor of this.

We could discuss the concept of "faith" as presented in the works of William Shakespeare. That could be interesting, and it would be wrong to take common concepts of faith and project them on his writings. Similarly, it is "bad faith" to take a concept of faith in a "magic book" and believe it to be the authoritative concept of faith.

Philosophy is not superstition.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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KLewchuk wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:02 pm Assertions that the Bible is inerrant, inspired, authoritative, etc...
...are justifiable, I think; but in any case, are really immaterial for the present point.

The present point is only "What concept of 'faith' does the Bible teach?" not, "Does KL accept what it teaches?" In deciding that question, the Bible IS authoritative, or course; for from whatever source will you derive your definition of what a "Christian" is genuinely required to believe? Popes? Councils? Christianity Today? Richard Dawkins?

For me, as for all Christians, the Word of God is the authority. Thus it, and only it, adequately describes genuinely "Christian" belief.
We could discuss the concept of "faith" as presented in the works of William Shakespeare.
And, were I, or anyone else, a "religious Shakespearean," that is exactly what you should do. However, since no such persons exist, I think we can forgo that pleasure. :wink:
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

Post by KLewchuk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:16 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:02 pm Assertions that the Bible is inerrant, inspired, authoritative, etc...
...are justifiable, I think; but in any case, are really immaterial for the present point.

The present point is only "What concept of 'faith' does the Bible teach?" not, "Does KL accept what it teaches?" In deciding that question, the Bible IS authoritative, or course; for from whatever source will you derive your definition of what a "Christian" is genuinely required to believe? Popes? Councils? Christianity Today? Richard Dawkins?

For me, as for all Christians, the Word of God is the authority. Thus it, and only it, adequately describes genuinely "Christian" belief.
We could discuss the concept of "faith" as presented in the works of William Shakespeare.
And, were I, or anyone else, a "religious Shakespearean," that is exactly what you should do. However, since no such persons exist, I think we can forgo that pleasure. :wink:
Simply untrue, there are Christians and denominations who do not accept the Bible as authoritative. You may not consider them Christians, but they do.

I remember Alan Watts having a great line to the effect, "Every Easter the Bible should be ceremonial burned; it is unnecessary if you believe the Holy Spirit is with us".

Not every Christian accepts magic books written 2K years ago.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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KLewchuk wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:33 am ...there are Christians and denominations who do not accept the Bible as authoritative. You may not consider them Christians, but they do.
Yes, there are those who take the name "Christian" who do not believe the Bible is authoritative. Good examples would be, say, those for whom the words of prelates or even the intuitions of what they call a "spirit" are permitted to contradict and make void the word of God, just as you say. For that matter, consider "DL," who calls himself/herself a "Christian Gnostic": but one of gnosticism's fundamentals is to believe that the Creator god is a "demiurge" or deceiver, and is not good.

So we don't even have to leave this forum to find a case of somebody who doesn't even really understand what a "Christian" must believe, who nevertheless calls himself/herself a "Christian." And, of course, there are whole countries of people, whose beliefs may be wildly different from anything in the Bible, who nevertheless would insist they are "Christian" countries. Really? :shock:

This is trivial, though. Calling oneself something is of no consequence unless one actually is what one claims.
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Immanuel Can wrote:
"Christian Gnostic": but one of gnosticism's fundamentals is to believe that the Creator god is a "demiurge" or deceiver, and is not good.
But it does however explain away the Xians' problem of evil. I bet you cannot do so, Immanuel!
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:17 am Immanuel Can wrote:
"Christian Gnostic": but one of gnosticism's fundamentals is to believe that the Creator god is a "demiurge" or deceiver, and is not good.
But it does however explain away the Xians' problem of evil. I bet you cannot do so, Immanuel!
Well, truth be told, B., the Gnostic explanation doesn't "explain" anything, really. It just moves the problem "up" one step. For the "demiurge" is at the last position in a long line of super-type entities, in Gnostic lore. So an explanation of why this allegedly incompetent or malevolent being was permitted to create a world in the first place, and to imprison "divine" elements in it, is missing from the account; and responsibility only moves up levels as the explanations are multiplied. Ultimately, the Gnostic answer to why evil exists is a kind of mental shrug. "Things is what they is," they might say.

But for the present moment, the point is only this: the Gnostics often call themselves "Christians" not only while believing nothing Christians believe, but while actually believing the direct opposite. For example, Gnosticism says flesh is evil or a prison for the spirit; but Christianity affirms the rightness of the material world, created good by God, and affirms it resoundingly in the Incarnation of the Son of God. So whereas in Gnosticism, pain and evil are just an illusion to be "gotten over" and escaped by "enlightenment," in Christianity, God Himself pronounces judgment against evil, then reaches down to grapple with the problem of evil, and does so on mankind's behalf. That's salvation.

The Christian answer to the problem of evil, then, is "Yes, it is evil; but you are not alone, not abandoned, not ignored, not unwanted, not fated to struggle without help, and not doomed to defeat, destruction, or oblivion. You are loved.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:17)
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:40 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:17 am Immanuel Can wrote:
"Christian Gnostic": but one of gnosticism's fundamentals is to believe that the Creator god is a "demiurge" or deceiver, and is not good.
But it does however explain away the Xians' problem of evil. I bet you cannot do so, Immanuel!
Well, truth be told, B., the Gnostic explanation doesn't "explain" anything, really. It just moves the problem "up" one step. For the "demiurge" is at the last position in a long line of super-type entities, in Gnostic lore. So an explanation of why this allegedly incompetent or malevolent being was permitted to create a world in the first place, and to imprison "divine" elements in it, is missing from the account; and responsibility only moves up levels as the explanations are multiplied. Ultimately, the Gnostic answer to why evil exists is a kind of mental shrug. "Things is what they is," they might say.

But for the present moment, the point is only this: the Gnostics often call themselves "Christians" not only while believing nothing Christians believe, but while actually believing the direct opposite. For example, Gnosticism says flesh is evil or a prison for the spirit; but Christianity affirms the rightness of the material world, created good by God, and affirms it resoundingly in the Incarnation of the Son of God. So whereas in Gnosticism, pain and evil are just an illusion to be "gotten over" and escaped by "enlightenment," in Christianity, God Himself pronounces judgment against evil, then reaches down to grapple with the problem of evil, and does so on mankind's behalf. That's salvation.

The Christian answer to the problem of evil, then, is "Yes, it is evil; but you are not alone, not abandoned, not ignored, not unwanted, not fated to struggle without help, and not doomed to defeat, destruction, or oblivion. You are loved.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:17)
That is why Trinitarianism is better than Gnosticism. Plus, Irenian Xianity is democratic not elitist.

However, I could be mistaken, but I thought within Gnosticism the Demiurge was on a par with God.

There is a full discussion of the Demiurge within Gnosticism here:

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/demiurge
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:59 pm That is why Trinitarianism is better than Gnosticism. Plus, Irenian Xianity is democratic not elitist.
Both your claims here are true, I agree. But the only right reason for Trinitarianism to be better is not found in its functional utility to human goals, but in the more basic fact of its truthfulness about God.
However, I could be mistaken, but I thought within Gnosticism the Demiurge was on a par with God.
No. The demiurge is just a "small-g" god, the lowest in a hierarchy ("emanations") of god-beings, and an incompetent or evil one, as well. The top is a thing called "Abyss," but allegedly nothing can be said about that entity.

This is why people like DL spout so much venom against the God of the Bible. They confuse Him with their demiurge. And since flesh and world are evil, in their minds, and are traps to be escaped by enlightenment, what can they say about any entity that claims to have created and to love the world?
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

Post by KLewchuk »

Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:17 am Immanuel Can wrote:
"Christian Gnostic": but one of gnosticism's fundamentals is to believe that the Creator god is a "demiurge" or deceiver, and is not good.
But it does however explain away the Xians' problem of evil. I bet you cannot do so, Immanuel!
Belinda,

I am forever amazed how relatively intelligent individuals, such as Immanuel, can be brainwashed. Methinks he may not even be an honest broker, this may be a missionary endeavor for his / her fundamentalist Christian sect.
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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KLewchuk wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:06 am I am forever amazed how relatively intelligent individuals, such as Immanuel, can be brainwashed. Methinks he may not even be an honest broker, this may be a missionary endeavor for his / her fundamentalist Christian sect.
Heh. :D

I am forever amused when an Atheist runs into a Christian who knows what he's talking about, and instantly has to conclude he's simply "brainwashed," because the alternative -- that he knows what he's talking about -- is simply unhelpful to the cherished metanarrative inside the Atheist's head.

But the story goes, "I'm a proselytizing Atheist, so what I say cannot possibly ever be a product of brainwashing...but a Christian who actually believes his worldview and is evangelical for it, well, he's obviously 'not an honest broker' for the truth."

So all the aggressive, angry Atheists...the Hitchinses, the Dawkinses, the Harrises, the Dennetts and Bart Ehrmanses of the world...all good guys, sincere men who who only ever speak truth, and are incapable of lying, having an agenda, or of being propagandists. But the other side? All brainwashed, all indoctrinated, all "not honest brokers."

Classic. :D

But I'm not insulted...just entertained.
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:18 am
KLewchuk wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:06 am I am forever amazed how relatively intelligent individuals, such as Immanuel, can be brainwashed. Methinks he may not even be an honest broker, this may be a missionary endeavor for his / her fundamentalist Christian sect.
Heh. :D

I am forever amused when an Atheist runs into a Christian who knows what he's talking about, and instantly has to conclude he's simply "brainwashed," because the alternative -- that he knows what he's talking about -- is simply unhelpful to the cherished metanarrative inside the Atheist's head.

But the story goes, "I'm a proselytizing Atheist, so what I say cannot possibly ever be a product of brainwashing...but a Christian who actually believes his worldview and is evangelical for it, well, he's obviously 'not an honest broker' for the truth."

So all the aggressive, angry Atheists...the Hitchinses, the Dawkinses, the Harrises, the Dennetts and Bart Ehrmanses of the world...all good guys, sincere men who who only ever speak truth, and are incapable of lying, having an agenda, or of being propagandists. But the other side? All brainwashed, all indoctrinated, all "not honest brokers."

Classic. :D

But I'm not insulted...just entertained.
The problem I have with your reasoning is you never doubt yourself.
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:26 am The problem I have with your reasoning is you never doubt yourself.
Of course I do. I just prefer to wait until it's warranted.

In this case...not so much.

But I think the men I mention do not lack self-assurance at all. Sam Harris, in particular, is accustomed, as I have said several times, to speaking with his eyes closed. And I think that this is no accident: these men are obliged to evince total certainty, a certainty that cannot be justified. For they imagine themselves the only epistemic creatures on the planet, and so if any certain knowledge is to be had at all, it has to be some human sort...else they would have to admit limitations they are at pains to deny.

One of these limitations is the limitation of science. They revere science, and are at pains to present it as the absolute achievement of certain knowledge. It's the field in which they hope to receive all their accolades, and it would suit their purposes if it were the total answer to the question "What is the extent of the real?" So their own prestige rises and falls with their claim that material science IS knowledge...total knowledge. And this is why elements science cannot "get at," like morality, soul, consciousness, and so on, are always explained away as material epiphenomena, or simply dismissed by them as "unreal."

Other basic human confinements that cause them angst are limitations of time, locality and embodiment. The Atheist has only his own tools and his own lifespan, added to whatever is already available to him dogmatically, to arrive at conclusions on matters that will not bear delay (as Locke noted), and to achieve a sense of actually having "known". And he is also at pains to guarantee the promulgation of his own worldview, which is put under threat by things like Theism. So gratuitous dismissal serves his purposes better than careful examination...at least in regard to them.

In contrast, the rational Theist, when he is indeed behaving rationally, has a much more comfortable relation with probability. Convinced, as he is, that Good alone knows everything and that mankind is inherently limited in that regard, and recognizing that knowledge is always a combination of certitude and faith, he doesn't become anxious or defensive when he knows his own knowledge to be less than absolute. He's at ease with reasonable faith. He is accustomed to recognizing that to have high-probability information is an adequate basis for taking a fact to be probabilistically true. And he does not feel that he is burdened to -- or can reasonably expect to -- ever experience 100% certainty, or to pretend that he has that. Why should he? No man does, and he knows it.

So he is better equipped to deal with the degrees of human knowledge, and does not need, like the ardent, propagandizing type of Atheist, to cling to an illusion of absolute certainty. He is certain enough, when he is being rational. Faith gets him to a level of security where the posture of absolute certainty would only be a deception.
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:54 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:26 am The problem I have with your reasoning is you never doubt yourself.
Of course I do. I just prefer to wait until it's warranted.

In this case...not so much.

But I think the men I mention do not lack self-assurance at all. Sam Harris, in particular, is accustomed, as I have said several times, to speaking with his eyes closed. And I think that this is no accident: these men are obliged to evince total certainty, a certainty that cannot be justified. For they imagine themselves the only epistemic creatures on the planet, and so if any certain knowledge is to be had at all, it has to be some human sort...else they would have to admit limitations they are at pains to deny.

One of these limitations is the limitation of science. They revere science, and are at pains to present it as the absolute achievement of certain knowledge. It's the field in which they hope to receive all their accolades, and it would suit their purposes if it were the total answer to the question "What is the extent of the real?" So their own prestige rises and falls with their claim that material science IS knowledge...total knowledge. And this is why elements science cannot "get at," like morality, soul, consciousness, and so on, are always explained away as material epiphenomena, or simply dismissed by them as "unreal."

Other basic human confinements that cause them angst are limitations of time, locality and embodiment. The Atheist has only his own tools and his own lifespan, added to whatever is already available to him dogmatically, to arrive at conclusions on matters that will not bear delay (as Locke noted), and to achieve a sense of actually having "known". And he is also at pains to guarantee the promulgation of his own worldview, which is put under threat by things like Theism. So gratuitous dismissal serves his purposes better than careful examination...at least in regard to them.

In contrast, the rational Theist, when he is indeed behaving rationally, has a much more comfortable relation with probability. Convinced, as he is, that Good alone knows everything and that mankind is inherently limited in that regard, and recognizing that knowledge is always a combination of certitude and faith, he doesn't become anxious or defensive when he knows his own knowledge to be less than absolute. He's at ease with reasonable faith. He is accustomed to recognizing that to have high-probability information is an adequate basis for taking a fact to be probabilistically true. And he does not feel that he is burdened to -- or can reasonably expect to -- ever experience 100% certainty, or to pretend that he has that. Why should he? No man does, and he knows it.

So he is better equipped to deal with the degrees of human knowledge, and does not need, like the ardent, propagandizing type of Atheist, to cling to an illusion of absolute certainty. He is certain enough, when he is being rational. Faith gets him to a level of security where the posture of absolute certainty would only be a deception.
"Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about."

- Sam Harris

Quote Source: Letter to a Christian Nation Page 67
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

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Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:27 pm "Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about."
- Sam Harris
Classic, isn't it? Harris is so certain. :D

That's just what I'm talking about. What the man knows about what real persons of faith think wouldn't fit in a thimble.

Doesn't stop him talking, though.

Want to see it in action? Just watch the "conversation" on religion between him and Jordan Peterson. It consists mostly of Harris talking, and listening to nothing. And all the time, he's sitting across from a guy whose intellect is manifestly far greater than his, and who is barely able to get a word in edgewise because Harris is monologuing nonstop.

That raises an interesting question, though: why are the proselytizing Atheists so angry? :shock: Aren't they the "certain" ones?
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