Trinity

[seeds]

I have investigated all religions I could find, practiced most of them, and finally embraced Islam. And so far I can say with certainty that Islam is the best of all religions.

Well, from the perspective of you being a male, I’m sure you do feel that way.

However, tell that to the female Muslims who get beaten by male Muslim brutes such as the one in this picture...



...for not completely covering themselves in a stifling sack because Muslim males have absolutely no control over their sexual urges.

Or explain how great Islam is to the little Muslim girls who have acid thrown in their faces for wanting to go to school.

Or explain how great Islam is to the young girls who get married off to some nasty old fart who offers the right price to her parents.

Or explain how great Islam is to the vast number of female houri (whores) who are expected to forever service the needs of the Muslim males with the “eternal erections” in heaven...



So, yes, from your male perspective, Islam is indeed “the best of all religions.”
_______

[seeds]

Averroes, the Taliban don't rule Afghanistan.

Make your research on this. When the statues were destroyed, the Taliban were the rulers of Afghanistan and the statues were destroyed by the approval of the then government of Afghanistan in it's rightful exercise of the sovereignty of state principle of international law.

Even if Taliban did rule Afghanistan they would be wrong if they isolated themselves from world heritage by claiming right to destroy what does not belong to them.

They did rule Afghanistan at that time. Under the principle of sovereignty of state, the statues belonged to Afghanistan, and they could destroy it legally from an international law point of view.

If that’s how you feel about it, Averroes, then you must be willing to be completely happy with the possibility that if some foreign (let’s say Buddhist) invaders conquer Saudi Arabia and then Israel,...

...then they have every right to demolish the Kaaba in Mecca, and the Prophet's Mosque in Medina, and then the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, and to burn every copy of the Quran they might find on the premises of the land they now (momentarily) have jurisdiction over.

Do you honestly expect us to believe that you would be as supportive of their right to destroy that which is important to Muslims as you are of the Afghan Muslims who destroy that which is important to Buddhists?

And depending on your answer, how in the world would any of us know whether or not you were telling the truth, or simply invoking your right to practice “taqiyya” (lying to infidels) as was mentioned to Belinda?
_______

[Veritas Aequitas]

As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?

Muhammad was immersed in modernising the medieval Arabian justice system where vendetta was normal. Muhammad may or may not have had a universalist attitude, and I don't think we can ever know if he was legislating for Arabs or for all people for all time.

It is not philosophical nor wise for you to speak from the basis of ignorance of what the Quran from Allah is about.
I understand you are trying to express from a good human being perspective, but philosophically we need to be objective with what Islam really is about.

According to Islam, Muslims have to believe the Quran -core of Islam- is from Allah and not constructed by Muhammad for his purpose in his circumstance then.
Your interpretations above would be tantamount to be blasphemy from the Muslims' beliefs.
(nb: it is only from an objective point from view of non-Muslims - the Quran was compiled by humans, possibly a 'Muhammad' with some evil prone men).

The Quran that are in the hands of Muslims at present are the 100% exact copy of the Quran Allah has on his right-hand side at present in heaven. The doctrines and commands in the Quran are immutable and to be applicable eternally and everywhere.

Muhammad is the exemplar of what the Quran commands Muslims to be.

Today's moralists are free to extract from medieval texts and any texts what seems to be the kernel of truth if it be there at all. Those of any religious persuasion or none who try to swallow the whole nut, husk and all, are naive , divisive, and possibly dangerous.

According to the Quran a Muslim is one who had entered into a contract [covenant] [Mithaq] with Allah?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/covenant-quran.html
As such all contracted Muslims are contractually bound to comply with All the terms of the contract [the whole nut, husk] which are only found in the Quran.

Allah in the Quran compels all Muslims to comply [ within their abilities] with all the commands in the Quran , which include loads of evil and violent elements.
If they don't comply fully they are not good Muslims as graded in the Quran and they will not be highly rewarded in paradise and they could be punished to some extent in Hell.

Therefore the Quran itself is intrinsically and inherently evil and potentially dangerous to humanity.
This evilness and violence are manifested and complied zealously as a religious duty by the natural percentage of evil prone Muslims. The natural % of those with active evil tendency [in various degrees] is conservatively around 20% - that is a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims.

The reality of Islamic driven evil and violence are so evident throughout the 1400+ years of Islamic history to the present. Note the recent statistics of incidents with fatalities;



Note I am referring to what is in the Quran objectively.
On the other hand you are expressing your subjective opinions without reference to the proper doctrines of Islam.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Averroes, the Taliban don't rule Afghanistan. Even if Taliban did rule Afghanistan they would be wrong if they isolated themselves from world heritage by claiming right to destroy what does not belong to them. This is why I urge you to follow the greater, not the lesser, jihad. You are on dangerous ground. Try to see the bigger picture.

You are right and on target re the bolded.

IF Averroes happened to be influential with the UK government, he would not hesitate to destroy all the statues around UK and all the artifacts in Museums in UK.
He has to otherwise he would not be a good Muslim as dictated in the Quran to hate and destroy idols.

The above IF is a reality with ISIS where they destroyed all statues, modern and of antiquity in places where they have control and reach.

[Veritas Aequitas]

You think idols are statues and such like material objects. Then you are a naive literalist. Idolatry is probably the biggest sin Muslims can commit. But not only for Muslims. Worshipping any material thing is stupid whether it is a holy statue or an expensive car. But idolatry is more than worship of a material thing.

.... I didn't say that the worshiping of statues was the only form of idolatry. Indeed, there are several forms of idolatry. And the worshiping of statues or any other created thing is a major form of idolatry which we have to remove from our lives immediately.
Indeed, it is extremely stupidto worship the creation instead of the Creator, the Almighty. We agree 100% here.
That's why I am encouraging all those willing, to destroy all statues that are their property.

You are the extremely stupid one.

I have not come across anyone insisting 'the symbol' is the same as that-which-is-symbolized.
All religious believers who worship idols and statues know that-which-is-symbolized [spiritual] is not the physical symbol [statues, idols, whatever physical].
There could be a rare-some who would do that, example the schizophrenic [believer] who insist the garden gnome or figure of Jesus or Mother Mary he spoke with is very 'real'.

A God [like Allah] that do not permit believers to worship Him [necessarily] in his various forms is a very stupid God.
Human variables are represented with a Normal Distribution - do you understand this?
As such there is a majority of believers who are not matured spiritually to realize and interact with God in his full form as the invisible omnipresent God.
An omniscient and wise God will understand such a need by those who are not highly spiritual.

This is what the wise God Brahman of Hinduism knows [being omniscient] and have no objections for his believers to interact with Brahman via whatever idols they prefer. All Hindus understand [very obviously] the idols they prayed to represent the invisible omni-present and omnipotent Brahman.
The highly spiritual Hindus will not rely on idols, statues, etc. to interact with Brahman because for them it is direct realization and oneness with Brahman itself.

Note even parents, lovers and others keep pictures [form of idol, symbol] of their loved ones to connect deeply with them mentally in their absence.
The same principles is applicable to religious believers and their invisible God.

Exodus 20:3-4 is very clear on this and leaves no room for ambiguity.

• 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [Exodus 20:3-4]

Why do you bring in the OT?
A Christian-proper is contracted to the Gospels-Only with the OT and other texts as Appendix to the contract.

[Veritas Aequitas]

I have investigated all religions I could find, practiced most of them, and finally embraced Islam. 
And so far I can say with certainty that Islam is the best of all religions.

You are either psychotic or ignorant in insisting Islam is the best of all religions.

Islam is the ONLY major religion that has overriding intrinsic and inherent evil and violent elements that compel all Muslims to kill and harm non-Muslims at the slightest of threats [fasadin] to the religion of Islam [Q5:33].

The above acts of evil and violence are so evident throughout the 1400 history of Islam up to the present, i.e.


Don't be that stupid in being complicit to the above.
Get out of Islam as fast as you can [it is possible you could end up as a suicide bomber if your neurons got short-circuited] and revert to Christianity which is a much more better religion with its overriding maxim of 'love all - even enemies'.

Islam obligates all Muslims as "contracted" [covenanted] with Allah to hate and abhor non-Muslims, their idols, etc. and hates and anger exude poisonous chemicals in your body whereas Christianity's "love all" exudes good neurotransmitters and hormones that are better [than Islam] for the human system.

There are loads of verses in the Quran where Allah exhorts hatred, abhorrence and the worst of attitudes toward non-Muslims, here is one example among the many;

• 34:45 Those before them denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them).

Therefore a Muslim who is contracted to comply with Allah's command is obligated by the terms of his contract with Allah to hate and abhor non-Muslims else he could be punished in hell and will not merit the promised rewards of salvation and sensual pleasures and delights in paradise.

Because what is at stake is either eternal life or eternal life, most Muslims will be compelled as obligated in their contract to hate non-Muslims as commanded by Allah in the Quran and kill non-Muslims at the slightest hint of threat [fasadin] to the religion of Islam.

[Veritas Aequitas]

I have investigated all religions I could find, practiced most of them, and finally embraced Islam. And so far I can say with certainty that Islam is the best of all religions.

Well, from the perspective of you being a male, I’m sure you do feel that way.

However, tell that to the female Muslims who get beaten by male Muslim brutes such as the one in this picture...



...for not completely covering themselves in a stifling sack because Muslim males have absolutely no control over their sexual urges.

Or explain how great Islam is to the little Muslim girls who have acid thrown in their faces for wanting to go to school.

Or explain how great Islam is to the young girls who get married off to some nasty old fart who offers the right price to her parents.

Or explain how great Islam is to the vast number of female houri (whores) who are expected to forever service the needs of the Muslim males with the “eternal erections” in heaven...

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/images/9/9b/72-houris.jpg

So, yes, from your male perspective, Islam is indeed “the best of all religions.”
_______

Averroes will definitely slip and run away from answering the above.

It is the same question you asked him re the Kaaba as an idol and the hypocrisy why Muslims do not destroy the Kaaba which is literally an idol.

Muslims also 'idolized' Satan as the three pillars where they throw stones at Satan;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_the_Devil

Muslims do not realize it but they are also "idolizing" the physical Quran and anyone damaging, burning, dirtying and desecrating the Quran will invite death.

[Belinda]

As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

I understand your point of view. However when Muslims understand Muhammad was a real man and real men do not literally talk to angels nor fly all night on the back of winged horses then Muslims will understand these stories are about Muhammad's spiritual and intellectual inspirations.

Anyone might have night of power without literally flying.Take that how you like. Actually I despair of people who are unable to read texts metaphorically or as analogies. Muslims are not the only people who are unable to do so, obviously.

It is true, however, that Islam is potentially more inflammatory and divisive than Xianity. This is because Xians cannot idolise Jesus as Jesus is viewed either as God or as human. Muhammad is wholly human and so if he is idolised that is sin. NB Jesus himself said said "There is none good but God".

True some Xians idolise the BVM however this is not bad, as she invariably symbolises mercy and human kindness, not power. Muhammad however was a man of worldly power, not only a real life trader but also a politician who reformed the Arabian social and moral life.
Why cannot Muslims understand and admit Muhammad was an historical personage?

It is not so much the content of the Koran that is inflammatory as the 'closing of the gate of ijtihad' that affects Sunnis.

The settling of Sunni law and increasing prominence of taqlid has at one point led most Western scholars to believe that the "gate of ijtihad" was in fact effectively closed around 900 C.E.

Taqlid, in Islamic law, the unquestioning acceptance of legal decisions of another without knowing the basis of those decisions.

Jehovah's Witnesses also do their own 'taqlid' as we know.

There are some personalities that cannot accept personal autonomy and feel bound to accept authorities.

[Veritas Aequitas]

As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

I understand your point of view. However when Muslims understand Muhammad was a real man and real men do not literally talk to angels nor fly all night on the back of winged horses then Muslims will understand these stories are about Muhammad's spiritual and intellectual inspirations.

Anyone might have night of power without literally flying. Take that how you like. Actually I despair of people who are unable to read texts metaphorically or as analogies. Muslims are not the only people who are unable to do so, obviously.

It is true, however, that Islam is potentially more inflammatory and divisive than Xianity. This is because Xians cannot idolise Jesus as Jesus is viewed either as God or as human. Muhammad is wholly human and so if he is idolised that is sin. NB Jesus himself said said "There is none good but God".

True some Xians idolise the BVM however this is not bad, as she invariably symbolises mercy and human kindness, not power. Muhammad however was a man of worldly power, not only a real life trader but also a politician who reformed the Arabian social and moral life.
Why cannot Muslims understand and admit Muhammad was an historical personage?

I am 100% certain Averroes will not agree with you that Muhammad was the central factor within Islam. It has to be Allah the all-powerful.

Averroes agreed with me somewhere that a Muslim is one who had entered into a contract with Allah and thus has to obey the words of Allah as stipulated in that contract.

According to Islam-proper Muhammad is merely a messenger and has no divine power himself. If Muhammad had "flew" it would have powered by Allah. Muhammad is a good exemplar for Muslims.

You must note the most critical stake is a matter of eternal life or eternal HELL, which is in Allah's hands and for this, Muslims cannot interpret the doctrine of Islam any other ways other than what is stated in the Quran and supported by the Ahadiths [Sunni or Shia].

The majority of theists [though they will deny] are like drowning men in the middle to the ocean clinging to twigs [Allah's fingers] like hanging by the skin of their teeth. Thus is why it is critical they must obey the commands of Allah the decision maker of their destiny to eternal life or eternal HELL.
This how fathers and mothers will go to the extreme of even sacrificing all their children to be suicide bombers to please Allah and gain his favor [as promised] to avoid eternal HELLfire.

[Belinda]

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

I understand your point of view. However when Muslims understand Muhammad was a real man and real men do not literally talk to angels nor fly all night on the back of winged horses then Muslims will understand these stories are about Muhammad's spiritual and intellectual inspirations.

Anyone might have night of power without literally flying. Take that how you like. Actually I despair of people who are unable to read texts metaphorically or as analogies. Muslims are not the only people who are unable to do so, obviously.

It is true, however, that Islam is potentially more inflammatory and divisive than Xianity. This is because Xians cannot idolise Jesus as Jesus is viewed either as God or as human. Muhammad is wholly human and so if he is idolised that is sin. NB Jesus himself said said "There is none good but God".

True some Xians idolise the BVM however this is not bad, as she invariably symbolises mercy and human kindness, not power. Muhammad however was a man of worldly power, not only a real life trader but also a politician who reformed the Arabian social and moral life.
Why cannot Muslims understand and admit Muhammad was an historical personage?

I am 100% certain Averroes will not agree with you that Muhammad was the central factor within Islam. It has to be Allah the all-powerful.

Averroes agreed with me somewhere that a Muslim is one who had entered into a contract with Allah and thus has to obey the words of Allah as stipulated in that contract.

According to Islam-proper Muhammad is merely a messenger and has no divine power himself. If Muhammad had "flew" it would have powered by Allah. Muhammad is a good exemplar for Muslims.

You must note the most critical stake is a matter of eternal life or eternal HELL, which is in Allah's hands and for this, Muslims cannot interpret the doctrine of Islam any other ways other than what is stated in the Quran and supported by the Ahadiths [Sunni or Shia].

The majority of theists [though they will deny] are like drowning men in the middle to the ocean clinging to twigs [Allah's fingers] like hanging by the skin of their teeth. Thus is why it is critical they must obey the commands of Allah the decision maker of their destiny to eternal life or eternal HELL.
This how fathers and mothers will go to the extreme of even sacrificing all their children to be suicide bombers to please Allah and gain his favor [as promised] to avoid eternal HELLfire.

BUT, Veritas, note well I did NOT say Muhammad is the central figure. I don't usually shout but this is not the first time you have put words into my mouth and I will not have it!

Allah is indeed great but the Muhammad of superstition is not his only prophet. Prophets are men not gods, let alone ghost-writers of 'God's own books'.

The circumstances of life for most people in the near East and Europe at the time of Muhammad were that the tribe was the focus of loyalty. Heroic literature of those times bears this out. Muhammad was a talented man of his timewho unified the disparate Arabian tribes making a larger unit.

The instruction not to make images of Muhammad is basically a good idea, as images anchor the character to time and place whereas Islamic scholars wanted Muhammad's text to inspire Muslims for all time. The stricture has backfired because most Muslims again, and this time in the case of pics of Muhammad, mistake the image for the idea.

Averroes did not say if his statues that he destroyed were religious images of holy personalities. Whether they were or whether they were garden gnomes they were representations. Averroes seems unable to separate a representation from what it represents; and that is what typifies superstition.

[Averroes]

Averroes did not say if his statues that he destroyed were religious images of holy personalities. Whether they were or whether they were garden gnomes they were representations.

You could have asked me Belinda, I would have told you. After I got the consent of my parents that these things were bad and shouldn't be on their property, I then proceeded to collect and subsequently destroy every statue that I could. There were no garden gnomes, but if there were those too would have been completely destroyed. My own properties, ie those statues and pictures that I had before I embraced Islam, were destroyed way before that. I destroyed everything that were against the explicit prescriptions in the scriptures. Anyway, the relevant scriptures for the Christians and Jews are unambiguous on the matter too. Please Belinda, recall:

• And God spoke all these words:
  2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
  3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.[Exodus 20:1-6]

• 26 “‘Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God. [Leviticus 26:1]

These verses are indeed very clear. A Christian or a Jew cannot say he/she does not understand these. Except for someone as stupid and ignorant as Veritas, no one will have a valid excuse for not understanding these verses. Don't you agree?

There is one thing though that I find to not fit with some of the good things you have said on this thread, for example your excellent statement on the stupidity of idol worship. Clearly you are not stupid and ignorant like Veritas. But why are you so concerned about me willingly destroying those statues which were in fact my own properties? For Veritas I can understand his anger and resentment as he is stupid and ignorant, and probably an idol worshipper too. But you, you do not appear to be like him. So why are you so concerned about those useless statues which on top of that belonged to me?!!

I can easily understand that in such places as India, Burma, Thailand or such other sh*t places, I would have been hanged or lynched for merely voicing my willingness to do what I did. But Christians who know the scriptures couldn't care less about these things. This is another thing I find to be very interesting. No Christian on this forum is after me for having destroyed my statues. Moreover, one Christian (attofishpi) on this thread even told me that I could continue destroying those abominations and he couldn't care less, and he then went on happily with his life. But some other members on this thread are still not getting over this! It is as if me destroying these statues has reminded them of how weak are that which they worship. Whereas everyone knows that the God of Abraham is Ever-Living and Self-Subsisting. And thus these idol worshippers are having a hard time being confronted with reality. This is indeed very interesting.

When I narrated this story of me destroying these stupid idols, I didn't expect it would have such an impact on some forum members! I said this casually, as for me it's not a big deal. If I knew it would have caused so many members to get so upset and angry, I would have said it in my very first post on this forum! Well may be not the first post as it would have been too awkward, but in the second or third! It's such a great moment, I am greatly enjoying this!

Can other willing members destroy their statues too and post something to let us know the job was done and have the angry members get even more crazy? Or may be these other members could also tell us what is your position on worshiping idols and statues.

[Belinda]

Averroes did not say if his statues that he destroyed were religious images of holy personalities. Whether they were or whether they were garden gnomes they were representations.

You could have asked me Belinda, I would have told you. After I got the consent of my parents that these things were bad and shouldn't be on their property, I then proceeded to collect and subsequently destroy every statue that I could. There were no garden gnomes, but if there were those too would have been completely destroyed. My own properties, ie those statues and pictures that I had before I embraced Islam, were destroyed way before that. I destroyed everything that were against the explicit prescriptions in the scriptures. Anyway, the relevant scriptures for the Christians and Jews are unambiguous on the matter too. Please Belinda, recall:

• And God spoke all these words:
  2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
  3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.[Exodus 20:1-6]

• 26 “‘Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God. [Leviticus 26:1]

These verses are indeed very clear. A Christian or a Jew cannot say he/she does not understand these. Except for someone as stupid and ignorant as Veritas, no one will have a valid excuse for not understanding these verses. Don't you agree?

There is one thing though that I find to not fit with some of the good things you have said on this thread, for example your excellent statement on the stupidity of idol worship. Clearly you are not stupid and ignorant like Veritas. But why are you so concerned about me willingly destroying those statues which were in fact my own properties? For Veritas I can understand his anger and resentment as he is stupid and ignorant, and probably an idol worshipper too. But you, you do not appear to be like him. So why are you so concerned about those useless statues which on top of that belonged to me?!!

I can easily understand that in such places as India, Burma, Thailand or such other sh*t places, I would have been hanged or lynched for merely voicing my willingness to do what I did. But Christians who know the scriptures couldn't care less about these things. This is another thing I find to be very interesting. No Christian on this forum is after me for having destroyed my statues. Moreover, one Christian (attofishpi) on this thread even told me that I could continue destroying those abominations and he couldn't care less, and he then went on happily with his life. But some other members on this thread are still not getting over this! It is as if me destroying these statues has reminded them of how weak are that which they worship. Whereas everyone knows that the God of Abraham is Ever-Living and Self-Subsisting. And thus these idol worshippers are having a hard time being confronted with reality. This is indeed very interesting.

When I narrated this story of me destroying these stupid idols, I didn't expect it would have such an impact on some forum members! I said this casually, as for me it's not a big deal. If I knew it would have caused so many members to get so upset and angry, I would have said it in my very first post on this forum! Well may be not the first post as it would have been too awkward, but in the second or third! It's such a great moment, I am greatly enjoying this!

Can other willing members destroy their statues too and post something to let us know the job was done and have the angry members get even more crazy? Or may be these other members could also tell us what is your position on worshiping idols and statues.

I am trying to understand what it's like to be unable to have ideas based upon history. Your understanding of Leviticus is not like my understanding of Leviticus.

You seem to believe that statues have the powers of intelligent beings, and can be evil like intelligent beings can be evil. But to me a statue is a metal or stone shape which has no meaning until someone thinks it means something.
In these olden days when the ancient people formulated their laws it was important the people all obeyed the same set of rules, so Leviticus is a list of the rules that the ancient Jewish tribe had to follow. Quite right too , as peoples all need the same laws to work peacefully together. But , Averroes, you are not an ancient Jew. There are modern laws more suited to modern people who don't believe statues are intelligent beings.
It is a pity there is no Muslim on these discussions who is a modern free man. You are right, there are important aspects of Islam I like, especially the command against idolatry. Your idea of what idolatry is all about seems to me to be superficial and infantile.
I hope you will keep within the proper law of the US or wherever you live, and remember Allah is god of mercy and peace.

[attofishpi]

You seem to believe that statues have the powers of intelligent beings, and can be evil like intelligent beings can be evil. But to me a statue is a metal or stone shape which has no meaning until someone thinks it means something.

Yep. Earlier this year I had to go to confession since I had 'crossed the line' with all the expletives I threw at God\Christ...(praying a sorry aint enough for a catholic it seems) - it's a binary thing (I had to UN-bit)

Anyway, as I was walking out there was an old lady in the back corner of the church with one hand on a statue of some 'saint' and her other hand on her forehead...deep in prayer. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't help myself and I said to her 'you do realise that is just a piece of stone shaped into the orm of a person.' She just looked at me with shock. Ah well, pointing out things as they are.

[Belinda]

You seem to believe that statues have the powers of intelligent beings, and can be evil like intelligent beings can be evil. But to me a statue is a metal or stone shape which has no meaning until someone thinks it means something.

Yep. Earlier this year I had to go to confession since I had 'crossed the line' with all the expletives I threw at God\Christ...(praying a sorry aint enough for a catholic it seems) - it's a binary thing (I had to UN-bit)

Anyway, as I was walking out there was an old lady in the back corner of the church with one hand on a statue of some 'saint' and her other hand on her forehead...deep in prayer. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't help myself and I said to her 'you do realise that is just a piece of stone shaped into the orm of a person.' She just looked at me with shock. Ah well, pointing out things as they are.

But statues are sometimes used as aids to prayer, and so are pictures. So are all sorts of works of art sometimes used as aids or inspirations to prayer.

Using statue or mantra or picture or candle as an aid to prayer is not the same as believing the artefact contains a magical power.

Idolatry is not simply using an object for inspiration. Idolatry is trusting an object or an ideology to have magical powers.

[attofishpi]

You seem to believe that statues have the powers of intelligent beings, and can be evil like intelligent beings can be evil. But to me a statue is a metal or stone shape which has no meaning until someone thinks it means something.

Yep. Earlier this year I had to go to confession since I had 'crossed the line' with all the expletives I threw at God\Christ...(praying a sorry aint enough for a catholic it seems) - it's a binary thing (I had to UN-bit)

Anyway, as I was walking out there was an old lady in the back corner of the church with one hand on a statue of some 'saint' and her other hand on her forehead...deep in prayer. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't help myself and I said to her 'you do realise that is just a piece of stone shaped into the orm of a person.' She just looked at me with shock. Ah well, pointing out things as they are.

But statues are sometimes used as aids to prayer, and so are pictures. So are all sorts of works of art sometimes used as aids or inspirations to prayer.

Using statue or mantra or picture or candle as an aid to prayer is not the same as believing the artefact contains a magical power.

Idolatry is not simply using an object for inspiration. Idolatry is trusting an object or an ideology to have magical powers.

Yeah, I know, i still feel bad about doing it - breaking her 'prayer' and all... I just wish these religious types would wake up to such nonsense.

Even when the priest has given me absolution and tells me for my penance I have to say the Lords prayer 3 times or whatever...I have a slight giggle inside when I chant the words through my head 3 times. (I don't kneel in front of the priest these days in confession - the sage told me to sit from a point in time onwards - I was getting pissed off at having to kneel to bloke in a frock that hadn't done the hard yards of gnosis)