Does capitalism by overshadowing democracy , undermines itself ?

[onglob]

There have been probably many factors that caused the hub of capitalism (US) to grow and turn into the economic superpower.
But I guess the main factor for US economic development and the maintenance of its dominance in global economy as well as an global power , has been the balance of two contradictory elements that we can hardly find in any other country , regarding the degree of that contradiction.

And I guess nowhere in the world you can find this balance of capitalism, that's aimed at property rights of individuals , and democracy that is aimed at rights of all individuals or the whole society , has coexisted similar to US.

And it reminds me of one of the driving forces of evolution : contradiction as can be found in Darwinian evolution theory and also in Hegelian philosophy .

But now we are witnessing the the imbalance between democracy and capitalism in favor of capitalism in US , can it be the alarm for the decline of the hub of capitalism ?

In other words, does capitalism by overshadowing democracy , undermines itself ?

[Impenitent]

as long as the rights of the individual are maintained, the democratic mob of socialism is subdued...

individual rights maintained through force of arms...

if you want your utopia, you have to kill for it

history never repeats

-Imp

[gaffo]

Does capitalism by overshadowing democracy , undermines itself ?

which undermines which? and yes one can undermine the other.

to my mind the two are not related.

Fascist Germany of 1940 was a prosperous Capitalist nation with nearly no democracy, Cambodia in the 70's would be the opposite (in one's nightmare of the ideal democracy - communist nightmare - no capitalism there.

I would today call China not Communist BTW, but fascist in fact, if not in formal statement - where Capitalism rules.

so the two are not related in any way, a good society includes both, me being an old school liberal think my America has moved to much toward Capitalism while ignoring Democracy, but that just my view.

as i stated the two are not related, you can have a democratic nightmare (Kameruge(sp)) - or a Capitalist one - German of the 40's/China today.

the best society is one that is both Capitalistic, where the Gov acts for Democracy (a gov that represents the small guy and breaks up monoplies) - 1970's America.

[gaffo]

as long as the rights of the individual are maintained, the democratic mob of socialism is subdued...

agreed.

individual rights maintained through force of arms...

no,. that model is Iraq today.

anarchy. every man for himself is not the solution.

the solution is a gov that serves the small guys.

if you want your utopia, you have to kill for it

no "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

history never repeats

-Imp

history ALWAYS repeats itself.

i could not dissagree more with your post.

[FrankGSterleJr]

Consecutive Canadian federal governments (always either the Liberal or Conservative party) have consistently allowed us to remain the world’s sole country that has universal healthcare but does not similarly cover prescribed medication, however necessary.
Not only does this make medication affordability much harder, but many low-income outpatients who cannot afford to fill their prescriptions end up back in the hospital system thus costing far more than if their generic-brand medication was covered.
Logic says, we cannot afford to maintain such an absurdity that costs Canada billions extra annually.
It’s not coincidental that the absence of universal medication coverage also keeps the pharmaceutical industry’s profits soaring.
Undoubtedly its lobbyists in Ottawa are well worth their bloated salaries.
(And considering it’s a potential life-and-death issue, why has our news-media not pursued it far more than it has? Or is there an over-reliance on Big Pharma advertisement revenue?)

[Impenitent]

as long as the rights of the individual are maintained, the democratic mob of socialism is subdued...

agreed.

individual rights maintained through force of arms...

no,. that model is Iraq today.

anarchy. every man for himself is not the solution.

the solution is a gov that serves the small guys.

did I say it was everyman for himself?

rights are maintained through force of arms...

it's the totalitarian leftists that want to disarm and defund the police ... the police which help maintain said rights...

if you want your utopia, you have to kill for it

no "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

revolutions often do...

gird your loins

history never repeats

-Imp

history ALWAYS repeats itself.

i could not dissagree more with your post.

I have repeatedly never said that history repeats itself...

the magic marxist fairy waves the magic wand and utopia!!

when that doesn't work, pick up a gun for your marxist overlords (choose either side, both will be armed)

history never repeats

-Imp

[onglob]

Does capitalism by overshadowing democracy , undermines itself ?

Fascist Germany of 1940 was a prosperous Capitalist nation with nearly no democracy, Cambodia in the 70's would be the opposite (in one's nightmare of the ideal democracy - communist nightmare - no capitalism there.

I would today call China not Communist BTW, but fascist in fact, if not in formal statement - where Capitalism rules.

as i stated the two are not related, you can have a democratic nightmare (Kameruge(sp)) - or a Capitalist one - German of the 40's/China today.

The instances you mentioned did not last long .
That's right China has adopted a capitalistic trend while still remaining an undemocratic country , but remember that China has never been a pioneer in technology and almost all its economic growth is based on imported technology.
And more , the growth of a capitalistic and undemocratic system cannot be durable , because sooner or later , corruption in all its hierarchy , undermines its economic power .

Also only in a democratic environment , new ideas and new talents have the opportunity to grow into giant or multinational companies or businesses .

However growing capitalistic viewpoint may end up in an insatiable greed and thus susceptible to high level corruption undermining the same democracy . The challenge , that I guess , US has been facing more and more .

[gaffo]

Does capitalism by overshadowing democracy , undermines itself ?

Fascist Germany of 1940 was a prosperous Capitalist nation with nearly no democracy, Cambodia in the 70's would be the opposite (in one's nightmare of the ideal democracy - communist nightmare - no capitalism there.

I would today call China not Communist BTW, but fascist in fact, if not in formal statement - where Capitalism rules.

as i stated the two are not related, you can have a democratic nightmare (Kameruge(sp)) - or a Capitalist one - German of the 40's/China today.

The instances you mentioned did not last long .
That's right China has adopted a capitalistic trend while still remaining an undemocratic country , but remember that China has never been a pioneer in technology and almost all its economic growth is based on imported technology.
And more , the growth of a capitalistic and undemocratic system cannot be durable , because sooner or later , corruption in all its hierarchy , undermines its economic power .

Also only in a democratic environment , new ideas and new talents have the opportunity to grow into giant or multinational companies or businesses .

However growing capitalistic viewpoint may end up in an insatiable greed and thus susceptible to high level corruption undermining the same democracy . The challenge , that I guess , US has been facing more and more .

I agree with your overall, but it is a global challenge, not just a US one. I think the US is failing this challenge, and other nations will have to step up - the EU or maybe India - if the latter can move BACK to pre-modi mentality.

we shall see.

[onglob]

I agree with your overall, but it is a global challenge, not just a US one. I think the US is failing this challenge, and other nations will have to step up - the EU or maybe India - if the latter can move BACK to pre-modi mentality.

we shall see.

Your Idea about EU and India would become true , however capitalistic policies and systems are not as strong as those in US .

Also EU or European nations have not enough unity and it seems more and more nationalistic
tendencies and break away policies weaken the union as well its potential to become an economic
superpower.
And India , although a democracy , do not have enough background to turn into an economic superpower.

The important inferred point , besides the main concept , in this thread is the dangerous aftermath of
US economic power decline in global political equilibrium between east and west and since US is also the main supporter of liberal democracies against undemocratic eastern powers , US power decline would be a real threat for all democratic nations in the world.
And US has not failed the challenge in its democracy yet (specially the oncoming one), although recent events proved that US democracy is both fragile and imperfect , but it would remain strong enough to maintain capitalism-democracy balance .
And I really hope that it would .

[gaffo]

I agree with your overall, but it is a global challenge, not just a US one. I think the US is failing this challenge, and other nations will have to step up - the EU or maybe India - if the latter can move BACK to pre-modi mentality.

we shall see.

Your Idea about EU and India would become true , however capitalistic policies and systems are not as strong as those in US .

Also EU or European nations have not enough unity and it seems more and more nationalistic
tendencies and break away policies weaken the union as well its potential to become an economic
superpower.

agree fully, i think the EU "machine" of representation needs reform, and see the 27 European Nations as - Ideally (or let me be clear here - i know they are independant nations - but should view themselves as US States - and so as a unified European Nation).

Is up to them, i do not see that 27 small nations without unity will result in more wars, and why we had ww1 and ww2 and why the EU could be a good thing for them, if they - the 27 are willing to be "states" instead of "nations" - after a proper reform of the EU, where those elected in the EU are valid representatives of the nations/states that elect them.

And India , although a democracy , do not have enough background to turn into an economic superpower.

don't follow, they already are an economic power.

The important inferred point , besides the main concept , in this thread is the dangerous aftermath of
US economic power decline in global political equilibrium between east and west and since US is also the main supporter of liberal democracies against undemocratic eastern powers , US power decline would be a real threat for all democratic nations in the world.

you have a point, but i do not undestand it, 9 beers, can you retry to offer you point?

short sentances, small words, and maybe i might be more sober when i see your reply next week so i can reply to it.

And US has not failed the challenge in its democracy yet (specially the oncoming one), although recent events proved that US democracy is both fragile and imperfect , but it would remain strong enough to maintain capitalism-democracy balance .
And I really hope that it would .

I share your hope, but being a pessimist do not assume my Nation will prevail in her internal struggle. i know history, and there is no inate bad DNA per Germans, but know of the early 30's via them, and see a parallel WRT to "my americans". and why tRump was elected 4 yrs ago.

your verbage inplied you are not an American, and assuming your nationality is not a personal secret (Emmanual Cant's nationality is - sadly last 2 yrs ive asked and even offered a personal message - i still think he is a Canadian).

its none of my business, but would like to know for full disclosure, and it does help in discussion - i.e. i know where you are from, and so might understand your perspective via history/culture (I do now quite a lot about history - as a layman - certianly no history major, but not an ignorous either).

anyway, thanks for reply Sir.

[onglob]

The important inferred point , besides the main concept , in this thread is the dangerous aftermath of US economic power decline in global political equilibrium between east and west and since US is also the main supporter of liberal democracies against undemocratic eastern powers , US power decline would be a real threat for all democratic nations in the world.

you have a point, but i do not undestand it, 9 beers, can you retry to offer you point?
short sentances, small words, and maybe i might be more sober when i see your reply next week so i can reply to it.

Simply the point is in the fact that almost all liberal democracies which mostly were in western block during the cold war are still considered to be the allies of U.S. , even some eastern European countries which were a part of eastern block , have shifted toward west or try to shift toward west(Ukraine , Belorussia , . . .) in their struggle for more open political arena .
But if Russia - in search for the lost Soviet dominance over the autocratic states - tolerate any kind free nation in its neighborhood.

So now when we are witnessing fading unity in western countries , probably those in Russian think tanks knew what they were doing when they decided to meddle in US election.

And US has not failed the challenge in its democracy yet (specially the oncoming one), although recent events proved that US democracy is both fragile and imperfect , but it would remain strong enough to maintain capitalism-democracy balance .
And I really hope that it would .

I share your hope, but being a pessimist do not assume my Nation will prevail in her internal struggle. i know history, and there is no inate bad DNA per Germans, but know of the early 30's via them, and see a parallel WRT to "my americans". and why tRump was elected 4 yrs ago.

I guess the background that led the Germans to National extremism was somewhat different, but I confess that weak foreign policy during Obama administration had a role in immigrant crisis and Russian appetite for expansionism, that still worsened the immigrant crisis and also religious extremism.

your verbage inplied you are not an American, and assuming your nationality is not a personal secret (Emmanual Cant's nationality is - sadly last 2 yrs ive asked and even offered a personal message - i still think he is a Canadian).

its none of my business, but would like to know for full disclosure, and it does help in discussion - i.e. i know where you are from, and so might understand your perspective via history/culture (I do now quite a lot about history - as a layman - certianly no history major, but not an ignorous either).

anyway, thanks for reply Sir.

I suppose an opinion should be judged by its reasoning and evidences, but to clear any doubts , I just tell that I am from a third world country , so I have not any direct concern about the weakening of the west in its encounter with the east .
But overall degradation of democracy in the whole globe does affect the life of every individual in any point of the globe .

[gaffo]

The important inferred point , besides the main concept , in this thread is the dangerous aftermath of US economic power decline in global political equilibrium between east and west and since US is also the main supporter of liberal democracies against undemocratic eastern powers , US power decline would be a real threat for all democratic nations in the world.

you have a point, but i do not undestand it, 9 beers, can you retry to offer you point?
short sentances, small words, and maybe i might be more sober when i see your reply next week so i can reply to it.

Simply the point is in the fact that almost all liberal democracies which mostly were in western block during the cold war are still considered to be the allies of U.S. , even some eastern European countries which were a part of eastern block , have shifted toward west or try to shift toward west(Ukraine , Belorussia , . . .) in their struggle for more open political arena .

yep.

But if Russia - in search for the lost Soviet dominance over the autocratic states - tolerate any kind free nation in its neighborhood.

? if you are saying that the Russians pine for the former now gone Soviet Empire, and hate to see more former USSR states moving toward the "West" - or at least outside of former Soviet control.

agreed.

So now when we are witnessing fading unity in western countries , probably those in Russian think tanks knew what they were doing when they decided to meddle in US election.

sure, meddling in other's elections - in the aim of your own national interests is to be expected and affirmed (if you affirm your gov) - so if most Russians affirm Putin and turned their backs on the concepts of the West like the Rule of Law, in order to restore the lost empire of the USSR (i.e. if you are a Russian preab that no longer values Western concepts of Rule of LAw and instead just is sad that his empire dead 40 yrs ago and only wished it to return (and it seems that 3/4 of Russian think this way now - sadly)) then of course they would affirm and aplaud such medling.

BTW as an American, i know my gov has played the same games in other nations for decade, if i support or not would be via my view if such meddling was valid per my nation - US's security.

so not opposed in principle about such meddling, but prob am 95-percent of the time since my nation is a world power and so not other nation outside of USSR and China are real threats to my nation's survival.

just being honest here, soon - the next 20 yrs, China will become the next USSR, and so my nation's primary threat to her survival (though with MAD (thank God for MAD - its not pretty but it works and has prevented ww3 50 yrs after that war would have happened if not for MAD).

And US has not failed the challenge in its democracy yet (specially the oncoming one), although recent events proved that US democracy is both fragile and imperfect , but it would remain strong enough to maintain capitalism-democracy balance .
And I really hope that it would .

I share your hope, but being a pessimist do not assume my Nation will prevail in her internal struggle. i know history, and there is no inate bad DNA per Germans, but know of the early 30's via them, and see a parallel WRT to "my americans". and why tRump was elected 4 yrs ago.

but I confess that weak foreign policy

Obama's foreign policy was shacked by his predisessor's incompetance - Aphgan/Iraqnam. Shrub took a dump in the middle of the world, and had American stuck in 2 wars that were unwinable, Obama spent 8 yrs "containing the shit Bush Jr made" - result was not losing either "war" - but both of course were lost the day they started 18 yrs ago, Obama just works to make them lost - after he was gone.

and if it made him look "weak" ya, he was cleaing the shut up of his predisessor. (who got off easy by staring 2 dumb and unwinable wars, then left "The chair" of the presidency" - for the next chump to clean up his mess and take the blame for being "Weak".

during Obama administration had a role in immigrant crisis

immigrant crisis

which immigrants which crises?

many immigrants many nations.

you talking about mexicans and america, or europe and arabs?

and Russian appetite for expansionism,

Russians are thugs, they are all about taking lands/nations and never give back - its a miricle that Finnland was not taken back by 46 - and the 3 Baltic states, the latter are still in the crosshears of Putin - Kaliningrad as an Exclave, MUST BE UNITED TO THE MOTHERLAND - to date 35 yrs now the Baltics are still indepentand Repbulics, but Putin has wet dreams to reincorporate them - and Finnland for Stalin - into "Mother Russia.

that still worsened the immigrant crisis and also religious extremism.

immigration issue per my and my Nation is via Mexicans (Catholics) - your reference to Religious Extremism WRT to immigration makes me thing you are in Europe somewhere - there the immagrants are arabs.

your verbage inplied you are not an American, and assuming your nationality is not a personal secret (Emmanual Cant's nationality is - sadly last 2 yrs ive asked and even offered a personal message - i still think he is a Canadian).

its none of my business, but would like to know for full disclosure, and it does help in discussion - i.e. i know where you are from, and so might understand your perspective via history/culture (I do now quite a lot about history - as a layman - certianly no history major, but not an ignorous either).

anyway, thanks for reply Sir.


I suppose an opinion should be judged by its reasoning and evidences, but to clear any doubts , I just tell that I am from a third world country , so I have not any direct concern about the weakening of the west in its encounter with the east .
But overall degradation of democracy in the whole globe does affect the life of every individual in any point of the globe .

ok, thanks for saying you are from the 3rd world (though from conversation clearly informed of world events) - so that leaves out Europe, Austraila, North american and South america (all those nations are at least 2nd word ones if not 1st world ones).

that leaves maybe south east asia - outside of India - either side of india, or 2/3 of africa (if you are Nigerian, i hope you are doing well - i've heard about what is happening there the last couple of weeks).....i doubt you are Nigerian since to my mind that nation is 2nd world and not on par with Eqitorial Gini/DRC/RC/Mali/etc...........

thanks for reply, if you decide to let me know where you reside, i would love to talk about your nation/its history/national interests etc.

[onglob]

sure, meddling in other's elections - in the aim of your own national interests is to be expected and affirmed (if you affirm your gov) - so if most Russians affirm Putin and turned their backs on the concepts of the West like the Rule of Law, in order to restore the lost empire of the USSR (i.e. if you are a Russian preab that no longer values Western concepts of Rule of LAw and instead just is sad that his empire dead 40 yrs ago and only wished it to return (and it seems that 3/4 of Russian think this way now - sadly)) then of course they would affirm and aplaud such medling.

BTW as an American, i know my gov has played the same games in other nations for decade, if i support or not would be via my view if such meddling was valid per my nation - US's security.

so not opposed in principle about such meddling, but prob am 95-percent of the time since my nation is a world power and so not other nation outside of USSR and China are real threats to my nation's survival.

You are right about unjust meddling or policies of US or other western democracies in internal affairs of other countries, but democracies are at list responsible to their own people or free media who monitor them in their own countries, (remember all those criticism about Iraq war in US & Europe) , But Eastern powers are totally irresponsible and free from any criticism from their media (e.g. USSR war in Afghanistan , suppression of any news about the outbreak of this pandemic in China).

Also you may look at the allies of US and the allies of Russia and China (Syria, North Korea, Iran) , Although you can consider Saudi Arabia , UAE , ... as US allies , you may judge for yourself that which allies are more problematic and harmful for the world.
So imagining a world that Russia and China would be dominant powers seems to be terrible .

Obama's foreign policy was shacked by his predisessor's incompetance - Aphgan/Iraqnam. Shrub took a dump in the middle of the world, and had American stuck in 2 wars that were unwinable, Obama spent 8 yrs "containing the shit Bush Jr made" - result was not losing either "war" - but both of course were lost the day they started 18 yrs ago, Obama just works to make them lost - after he was gone.

and if it made him look "weak" ya, he was cleaing the shut up of his predisessor. (who got off easy by staring 2 dumb and unwinable wars, then left "The chair" of the presidency" - for the next chump to clean up his mess and take the blame for being "Weak".

It seem that Obama's foreign policy was a reaction to his predecessor' policy (as you said) that I guess could be much better in facing Syria and Iran.

But his internal and economic policy was brilliant , because he recovered US economy after 2008 world economic crisis.
And a president decency is proved crisis , either economic or pandemic .

immigration issue per my and my Nation is via Mexicans (Catholics) - your reference to Religious Extremism WRT to immigration makes me thing you are in Europe somewhere - there the immagrants are arabs.

Immigrant crisis in Europe had worldwide reflection and remember Brexit happened just before 2016 election, as well as worldwide Islamic extremism as ISIS.

[gaffo]

You are right about unjust meddling or policies of US or other western democracies in internal affairs of other countries,

in principle i have no problem with meddling in others elections as long as it may serve America's insterests.

i am an geopolitical realist, as though "left" more "paleolithic Right per Scocroft (rip) in my views internationally.

i affirm the right off all other nations to meddle in other nations - including my nation America - per thier national interests.

Also you may look at the allies of US and the allies of Russia and China (Syria, North Korea, Iran) , Although you can consider Saudi Arabia , UAE , ... as US allies ,

I have no problem with UAE, but much problems with Saudi Arabia (thugs - but "our thugs" so affirm them as useful for American interests - for now - though still think they are thugs (unlike UAE).

i have a huge problem with Bahrain (which is a thuggish regime identical to the Saudis - though less powerful (so i personally think America should throw them overboard - they play no role per containing Iran (too small) - as long as they jail doctors per the "pearl roundabout" for givng medical aid to protestors and sentenced to 50 yrs to life for so - a kingdom we support where the Shia are 80 percent, and the king is a sunni (America is on the wrong side of history (like she was per Iran in 79) - Bahrain is a power-keg, and we (Americans) are on the wrong side of history here - i'm fully in support of throwing Bahrain overboard - more aptly in support of America ending support of the Sunni King rulling over the majority Shia with discrimination...............Bahrain is not of geopolitical importance, so it would be easy for America to end support for her until she affirm the Shia as equal citizens.

Saudis are another matter - deal with the devil, to contain Iran.

no thanks to Bush jr - with is foolish Iranam war - giving Iraq to Iran, and so now a puppet Iraq (greater Iran) - via removing sunni rule of Iraq - but as we know Jr was not his dad - the latter was smart and why he ended the Gulf war after removing iraq from kuwait, and the former was a dumb shit and gave iraq to iran.

you may judge for yourself that which allies are more problematic and harmful for the world.

Saudis are thugs, but serves to contain Iran.

BTW the Iranian people are more liberal/educated than the Saudi people, only their gov is as bad as the Saudi one. if/when the Iranian people revolt and overthrow - as they did in 79 - i just hope my nation (America) - see it and sides with them.

until then, america should side with the saudis to contian the iranians. this in my nations interest per today.

So imagining a world that Russia and China would be dominant powers seems to be terrible .

Russia is irrelivent, no future.

the future is: 2050 AD

China the world power

America/India 2 world power

EU third power.


Wise "western leaders" from Indian PMs (leaves Modi out), to EU to American pres, will combine their powers/mutual interests to contain the world power China.

[FrankGSterleJr]

The first-past-the-post electoral system just barely qualifies as democratic rule within the democracy spectrum.

American and Canadian governments, in particular, typically maintain thinly veiled yet strong ties to large corporations, as though elected heads are meant to represent big money interests over those of the working citizenry and poor.

I believe it reflects why those powerful interests generally resist proportional representation electoral systems of governance, the latter which tends to dilute the corporate lobbyist influence on the former.

As much as I’m glad Trump lost the election, I’m really doubtful that a Biden/Harris governance will make a marked improvement in poor and low-income Americans’ quality of life, however much the pair might try. And I have a hard time imagining anything resembling ‘Obamacare’ coming back.

Those doubting the powerful persuasion of huge business interests need to consider how governing officials can feel crippled by implicit or explicit corporate threats to transfer or eliminate jobs and capital investment, thus economic stability, all of which is being made even worse by a blaring news-media naturally critical of the government.

Also concerning is that corporate representatives actually write bills for our governing representatives to vote for and have implemented, typically word for word, supposedly to save the elected officials their time.