Calling All Liberal Race Baiters

[Skepdick]

Apparently not.

Perhaps because you don't know what it's like?

Not your fault. You can't learn it from youtube.

[commonsense]

I think the adage was actually...

I think that people are too literal and have difficulty understanding metaphor.

Or have you some proof that policeman should reasonably have known about the failures of some of their members in advance? I'd be interested in knowing what that proof would be.

Who said anything about knowing in advance? I would be interested in knowing what the proof would be, too.

[Immanuel Can]

I think the adage was actually...

I think that people are too literal and have difficulty understanding metaphor.

Or have you some proof that policeman should reasonably have known about the failures of some of their members in advance? I'd be interested in knowing what that proof would be.

Who said anything about knowing in advance?

Well, if they had no way to know in advance that a few certain "bad apples" of their number were going to botch arrests, then the police themselves have no responsibility. They couldn't have known.

Life's like that. Some things you can't see coming, particularly when people are involved. They don't always do what you've taught them to do, especially in the moment of high stress. There's really no way to beat that. You can only do something about stuff that was knowable beforehand.

[Skepdick]

Well, if they had no way to know in advance that a few certain "bad apples" of their number were going to botch arrests, then the police themselves have no responsibility. They couldn't have known.

Well if airplane building companies had no way to know in advance that a few certain "bad airplanes" of theirs were going to crash, then the airplane builders themselves have no responsibility. They couldn't have known.

They know now. And they have responsibility to minimise recurrence.

[commonsense]

I think that people are too literal and have difficulty understanding metaphor.

Or have you some proof that policeman should reasonably have known about the failures of some of their members in advance? I'd be interested in knowing what that proof would be.

Who said anything about knowing in advance?

Well, if they had no way to know in advance that a few certain "bad apples" of their number were going to botch arrests, then the police themselves have no responsibility. They couldn't have known.

Life's like that. Some things you can't see coming, particularly when people are involved. They don't always do what you've taught them to do, especially in the moment of high stress. There's really no way to beat that. You can only do something about stuff that was knowable beforehand.

But if some police know of bad behavior after the fact, it would fit the ditty I wrote above. If that behavior were to be accepted by other police, then those others are co-conspirators in the creation of a climate of inappropriate tolerance, otherwise known as a systemic problem.

[Immanuel Can]

If that behavior were to be accepted by other police...

Agreed. But I haven't, so far, seen any cases where that has happened. Have you?

What generally has happened, in these few cases, is that the chief comes out right away and says, "The officers involved have been suspended, pending an investigation. We in no way endorse the procedure of which they are accused."

And if that's what's happening, what else do we want?

[Skepdick]

What generally has happened, in these few cases, is that the chief comes out right away and says, "The officers involved have been suspended, pending an investigation. We in no way endorse the procedure of which they are accused."

Would such response from an airline comfort you on your next ticket purchase?

You wouldn't perhaps want airlines to filter out pilots who are prone to breaching protocol under duress somehow?

If your standards are that low - I would understand. You are a Christian after all.

[Immanuel Can]

What generally has happened, in these few cases, is that the chief comes out right away and says, "The officers involved have been suspended, pending an investigation. We in no way endorse the procedure of which they are accused."

Would such response from an airline comfort you on your next ticket purchase?

What else would you expect? A public lynching? If guilty, the officers were acting contrary to instructions and procedures; so changing instructions and procedures wouldn't have changed anything at all. Meanwhile, all the officers who DID obey instructions and procedures are blameless. They could not have known anybody else would simply disobey instructions and procedures.

[Skepdick]

What else would you expect? A public lynching?

Better training?

If guilty, the officers were acting contrary to instructions and procedures; so changing instructions and procedures wouldn't have changed anything at all.

The pilot was acting contrary to instructions! WHY?

Meanwhile, all the officers who DID obey instructions and procedures are blameless. They could not have known anybody else would simply disobey instructions and procedures.

All other pilots didn't "obey instructions" because they were never in a situation where they had to execute (and abandon) the protocol.

[Immanuel Can]

What else would you expect? A public lynching?

Better training?

So your theory is that the mishandling of arrests by the few officers is a product of "bad training"? That's your theory?

Okay, well, I think that's crazy; but if true, then it's certainly not a product of any racism. So you've lost your point there.

[Skepdick]

So your theory is that the mishandling of arrests by the few officers is a product of "bad training"? That's your theory?

I don't have a theory. The purpose of asking "Why?" is to come up with one.

Your theory seems to be "we don't need a theory".

Okay, well, I think that's crazy; but if true, then it's certainly not a product of any racism.

You don't know what it's a product of - you can't even be bothered to ask "Why?"

So you've lost your point there.

I have?

You must have some conception of "racism" that is incurable by education. Is it like... Original Sin? Innate and incurable evil? Once a racist always a racist?

[Immanuel Can]

So your theory is that the mishandling of arrests by the few officers is a product of "bad training"? That's your theory?

I don't have a theory. The purpose of asking "Why?" is to come up with one.

Good. Because that would be a bad theory. What's your better one?

You don't know what it's a product of - you can't even be bothered to ask "Why?"

Of course we can ask that question. But if we go looking for explanations that suggest all police are somehow irresponsible or mis-trained, we'd best have some data to prove that that is the cause. If not, we're wasting our time on demanding police reform when there's nothing wrong with the police in general.

Don't you think the problem is important enough for us to want to get the cause right? Are you happy just to throw guesses around, and never get to serious solutions?

So you've lost your point there.

I have?

Yes. Because if "police not being trained right" is the explanation, then racism isn't. That is, unless you have some evidence that makes you believe policemen are being formally trained to become racists...and what would that be?

[Skepdick]

Good. Because that would be a bad theory. What's your better one?

Trying to understand is a "bad theory"? No wonder you are this dull.

You can't even distinguish strategies from theories.

Of course we can ask that question. But if we go looking for explanations that suggest all police are somehow irresponsible or mis-trained, we'd best have some data to prove that that is the cause.

Then don't look for any "explanations" or "proof" or "cause"?

Look for any vantage point that allows you to positively affect the outcome.

If not, we're wasting our time on demanding police reform when there's nothing wrong with the police in general.

There's no such thing as general solutions to particular problems.

Don't you think the problem is important enough for us to want to get the cause right? Are you happy just to throw guesses around, and never get to serious solutions?

Nobody ever gets "the cause" right in complex domains. That's because there's never a single cause.

Luckily we live in a universe where problems can be mitigated without being root-caused!

https://how.complexsystems.fail/

Post-accident attribution to a ‘root cause’ is fundamentally wrong.
Because overt failure requires multiple faults, there is no isolated ‘cause’ of an accident. There are multiple contributors to accidents. Each of these is necessarily insufficient in itself to create an accident. Only jointly are these causes sufficient to create an accident. Indeed, it is the linking of these causes together that creates the circumstances required for the accident. Thus, no isolation of the ‘root cause’ of an accident is possible. The evaluations based on such reasoning as ‘root cause’ do not reflect a technical understanding of the nature of failure but rather the social, cultural need to blame specific, localized forces or events for outcomes.

Yes. Because if "police not being trained right" is the explanation, then racism isn't. That is, unless you have some evidence that makes you believe policemen are being formally trained to become racists...and what would that be?

This is an honest question: Where did you learn to think like an idiot? Philosophy school?

[commonsense]

If that behavior were to be accepted by other police...

Agreed. But I haven't, so far, seen any cases where that has happened. Have you?

Yes. Details will be withheld.

[commonsense]

What generally has happened, in these few cases, is that the chief comes out right away and says, "The officers involved have been suspended, pending an investigation. We in no way endorse the procedure of which they are accused."

Would such response from an airline comfort you on your next ticket purchase?

What else would you expect? A public lynching? If guilty, the officers were acting contrary to instructions and procedures; so changing instructions and procedures wouldn't have changed anything at all. Meanwhile, all the officers who DID obey instructions and procedures are blameless. They could not have known anybody else would simply disobey instructions and procedures.

You’re right—changing instructions, directions, policies and procedures will not change the situation. You have to change the culture, because culture trumps training every day of the week.

As for the police chief saying and doing the right things promptly after an incident, that’s an important step but one hat will have little if any effect on the culture of the frontline cops on the street and in their patrol cars.