"There has never been true communism."

[Immanuel Can]

The slide from one to the other is very, very short.

Fallacy of false equivalence.

You can think so, of course. That's how many Socialists seek to avoid the unpleasant consequences of their ideology -- claim that all the "Communisms" and "Socialisms" that have existed so far, empirically, in the whole history of Socialism, have never been "true" Communism, or "true" Socialism. That's what this thread is about, of course.

It's just not true, though. They can't locate this "true" Socialism they claim to support. They can only claim that magically, if Socialism reappeared, it would be guaranteed to turn out to be the "true" kind, the good kind, the kind that doesn't kill people or collapse economies, now.

Why we should believe that, you're going to have to explain to me.

[Ginkgo]

The slide from one to the other is very, very short.

Fallacy of false equivalence.

You can think so, of course. That's how many Socialists seek to avoid the unpleasant consequences of their ideology -- claim that all the "Communisms" and "Socialisms" that have existed so far, empirically, in the whole history of Socialism, have never been "true" Communism, or "true" Socialism. That's what this thread is about, of course.

It's just not true, though. They can't locate this "true" Socialism they claim to support. They can only claim that magically, if Socialism reappeared, it would be guaranteed to turn out to be the "true" kind, the good kind, the kind that doesn't kill people or collapse economies, now.

Why we should believe that, you're going to have to explain to me.

I live in a country that is a mixture of socialism and capitalism, you probably live in a similar country. We have had a number of socialists in power from time to time, and I haven't seen any sign of a dictatorship in that time, and I don't expect we will in the future. How do you explain that?

[Immanuel Can]

I live in a country that is a mixture of socialism and capitalism, you probably live in a similar country. We have had a number of socialists in power from time to time, and I haven't seen any sign of a dictatorship in that time, and I don't expect we will in the future. How do you explain that?

Very easily. I'll warrant you live in a country where the influence of Socialism is strictly limited right now.

Perhaps there are a few "socialized" programs...welfare, maybe, some medical, education...but not the general economy, and not the political apparatus. And just as the body can tolerate a few toxins, your country may remain fairly healthy with all that. In fact, you may even pride yourselves on your "humane" approach to Capitalism, and dally with the idea of giving more sectors over to Socialism. That's what's going on here.

But doubtless, signs of sickness are already creeping in to all those areas where Socialist policies preside: the education is more totalitarian and uniform than it ought to be to allow for diversity of opinion, for example, or the medical system is becoming so expensive it's threatening other sectors of the economy, or you are having to carry a large number of welfare cheats, or unions are starting to cripple manufacturing sectors. And if you care to look, you'll always find those symptoms of rot wherever Socialism gets its claws in. We certainly see it. The handwriting is on the wall; we can't carry our social welfare sectors indefinitely, and the machinery that produces the surpluses that currently sustain it (our Capitalist and resource sectors) have recently been crippled by COVID paranoia. We're decidedly in trouble, when it comes to every Socialist program we have, because they never cover their own costs, let alone produce anything like the surplus value required to sustain our welfare programs.

Socialism is "magic money" thinking, you know. It never covers its own costs. It just expects the money to appear, magically.

Meanwhile, we have safeguards that presently inhibit Socialism from becoming decisive politically. We have a multi-party political system, with major parties that vary between conservatism with minor socialist elements and liberalism with the a few more, and traditional, liberal-democratic political machinery. We have no serious radical or hardcore Socialist parties; they are around, but don't get votes at present, which is good...very good.

So I dare say that you don't see tyrants because you don't see Socialism getting the upper hand and becoming the controlling system. If you ever do, that is exactly what you will see next...at least, historically, that is what has happened in every case. The first sign of coming tyrants will be the rise to prominence of people who start saying there's no reasonable or moral option but Leftism, and that everybody who disagrees with them should be silenced, punched, abused, marginalized, is a racist, is an oppressor,...etc.

Free speech will be the first calamity. Watch for it.

[Impenitent]

Free speech will be the first calamity. Watch for it.

you aren't allowed to say that

it is offensive to the LGBTALPHABETSOUPBLM community

the shooting starts November 4

utopia

-Imp

[FlashDangerpants]

Socialism, conservatism, overpoliticised religious zeal, fascism, centrist liberalism, Henry's little-to-no government thing, and all those other supposedly incompatible things can all result in overlapping policy recommendations. What differentiates them in the main is in the reasons given for arriving at recommendations more than the end result.

I am not a socialist by any sane description but even as a capitalist running-dog, I can still recommend universal insurance for health and unemployment, as can all of the above apart from Henry. It's just that the reasons I would give are not in line with those a socialist might.

Same goes for higher taxes for the high paid; universal education with some main standards and no bullshit about religion in the science classes; carbon taxes.... the list goes on. If you confuse any of those things with socialism you have a failure of the imagination to blame.

[Immanuel Can]

Free speech will be the first calamity. Watch for it.

you aren't allowed to say that

it is offensive to the LGBTALPHABETSOUPBLM community

the shooting starts November 4

utopia

-Imp

I'll expect the knock at my door.

[henry quirk]

Socialism, conservatism, overpoliticised religious zeal, fascism, centrist liberalism, Henry's little-to-no government thing, and all those other supposedly incompatible things can all result in overlapping policy recommendations. What differentiates them in the main is in the reasons given for arriving at recommendations more than the end result.

I am not a socialist by any sane description but even as a capitalist running-dog, I can still recommend universal insurance for health and unemployment, as can all of the above apart from Henry. It's just that the reasons I would give are not in line with those a socialist might.

Same goes for higher taxes for the high paid; universal education with some main standards and no bullshit about religion in the science classes; carbon taxes.... the list goes on. If you confuse any of those things with socialism you have a failure of the imagination to blame.

yeah, you are

[FlashDangerpants]

Socialism, conservatism, overpoliticised religious zeal, fascism, centrist liberalism, Henry's little-to-no government thing, and all those other supposedly incompatible things can all result in overlapping policy recommendations. What differentiates them in the main is in the reasons given for arriving at recommendations more than the end result.

I am not a socialist by any sane description but even as a capitalist running-dog, I can still recommend universal insurance for health and unemployment, as can all of the above apart from Henry. It's just that the reasons I would give are not in line with those a socialist might.

Same goes for higher taxes for the high paid; universal education with some main standards and no bullshit about religion in the science classes; carbon taxes.... the list goes on. If you confuse any of those things with socialism you have a failure of the imagination to blame.

yeah, you are

You neglected to embolden the "sane description" part in that quote. Some complete loon with no idea what he's on about might consider me a socialist though, that I grant.

[henry quirk]

Socialism, conservatism, overpoliticised religious zeal, fascism, centrist liberalism, Henry's little-to-no government thing, and all those other supposedly incompatible things can all result in overlapping policy recommendations. What differentiates them in the main is in the reasons given for arriving at recommendations more than the end result.

I am not a socialist by any sane description but even as a capitalist running-dog, I can still recommend universal insurance for health and unemployment, as can all of the above apart from Henry. It's just that the reasons I would give are not in line with those a socialist might.

Same goes for higher taxes for the high paid; universal education with some main standards and no bullshit about religion in the science classes; carbon taxes.... the list goes on. If you confuse any of those things with socialism you have a failure of the imagination to blame.

yeah, you are

You neglected to embolden the "sane description" part in that quote. Some complete loon with no idea what he's on about might consider me a socialist though, that I grant.

I am that

cuz you are

[FlashDangerpants]

whatever

[Belinda]

Hippies' communes are the purest examples of practical communism.

[henry quirk]

Hippies' communes are the purest examples of practical communism.

have any lasted?

do any exist?

i'm bettin' they all died off or became sumthin' else

[Immanuel Can]

Something new and relevant on the "true Communism" argument from the Left, particularly the "Scandinavia" dodge: short, but worth seeing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTvFoOlH0Y

[henry quirk]

Something new and relevant on the "true Communism" argument from the Left, particularly the "Scandinavia" dodge: short, but worth seeing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTvFoOlH0Y

my current settings disallow videos: can you gimme the gist?

[Immanuel Can]

Something new and relevant on the "true Communism" argument from the Left, particularly the "Scandinavia" dodge: short, but worth seeing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTvFoOlH0Y

my current settings disallow videos: can you gimme the gist?

It shows a number of interesting facts about the Scandinvians, and about Leftist claims that Scandinavia represents Socialism or represents better fairness in things like taxation.

• In the US, the rich pay 70% of the taxes. The welfare system could not stay afloat without them continuing to do so.

• In Scandinavia, the economy runs on Capitalism, and only distributes to the public welfare pot on limited Socialist lines.

• Scandinavia does not ban private health care or schooling.

• In the Scandinavian countries, they have a "value-added tax," or VAT, that they impose on everyone, rich, poor and middle class, at 25%. That means that the poor bear a disproportionally high tax burden -- in other words, taxation in Scandinavia is not progressive, but regressive.

• The Left claims to advocate for Scandinavian policies, but the package they actually argue for is Cuban-Venzeuelan, not Scandinavian.

• Gun banning was Chavez's first step in controlling his populace. Then he used gangs of armed, Antifa-style thugs, or like Hitler's brownshirts, to intimidate his opposition.

There are some other gems in there. It's well worth a few minutes for those who can see it.