"There has never been true communism."

[Belinda]

I think you have to be a pretty dried up psychopath to miss the fact that all mammals would not exist were it not for the altruistic love of motherhood.
One has to wonder at the degree of psychopathy here on the Forum to have missed that so completely.

A mother being protective towards her young is hardly the same thing as humans being 'hardwired for altruism'. And humans are probably LESS protective of their young than most other mammals. Just look at all the child abuse. A large chunk of human mothers put their ratbag temporary boyfriends ahead of their own children.

Ability to care for juveniles for as long as it takes is a possibility not available to most species. It's conceivable this ability is part cause of altruism, but it's not possible to measure the extent of its influence.
Veggie's comparison is correct. Human child care is patchy compared with that of other species that care for juveniles.
We need to seek the cause of human bad child care and the cause of human lack of altruism . That cause is reason. Men have more reason to fear for themselves than has any other animal, because men can predict man's future and remember man's past. The result is cultures of callousness and madness. Callousness is like not rescuing migrants from drowning in the Mediterranean, or the extremes of libertarianism,or racial prejudice, or child neglect.

We are saddled with reason. Reason is what men do. Reason will have to be put to work to support love.

[henry quirk]

Because some individuals are always going to be bossier than others. that has always been the case and probably always will be.

you're sayin' if folks weren't bossy there could be a true communism?

I don't know because I can't imagine any group of people , organised or not, where some people are not bossier than others. We just have to be very very careful to allow only bossy people who are also wise to be the rulers.

no

[henry quirk]

I'd rather be fucked with the rough end of a pineapple

I'm sure you have been, many times

to each his own

[Immanuel Can]

We just have to be very very careful to allow only bossy people who are also wise to be the rulers.

no

I thought the point of Communism was allegedly equality, and rule by all the workers -- "dictatorship of the proletariat", as Marx would have it.

But it turns out that it always ends up with "rulers," "bossy people,"...let's just call them what they are, really...the Stalins, the Maos the Ceacescues, the Castros, the Kim Jongs...not so much "wise" as ruthless. And the general populace too "equal," too levelled, subdued and fearful of their "comrades" to raise a finger in protest.

That's where Communism ends...as it has, every single time in history.

[henry quirk]

This thing has a military to protect its borders, a court to decree its laws, and police force to enforce them, it might not be much of a state, but it is a state.

to be clear...

there are multiple, local, minimal courts of last resort to arbitrate local dispute; multiple, local, minimal constabularies to investigate local complaint; a border patrol, voluntary; a militia (everyone)

it might be a nation (I'd like to think so), but it ain't a state


Let's say some guy, we'll call him FDP, comes into town with a bunch of money he has no need to explain in any way, and buys up the local electricity supply chain.

which supply (there's multiple)? why would anyone sell to you (the current owner or owners has no interest in sellin')?

in fairness: I see your point...what you describe is a possibility (but not a certainty)...all is permissible as long as life, liberty, property are respected, as long as the three are abided

thing to remember: the natural monopoly can stand forever, or fall the day after it comes to be

your alter monopolizes power, for example, and goes under cuz someone (call him HQ) comes in with a n. tesla-based wireless transmission system that renders your fairly acquired system obsolete (it'd cheaper, more reliable, lower maintenance)...and, no, he has no interest in meetin' with FDP to discuss partnership or sale


I know what they would do, it is the same thing as happens in failed states and mismanaged economies all the time.

I thought trends weren't certainties?


You can't run an economy of any complexity on neolithic barter principles and lumps of metal.

why not? hard value for hard value, value bein' fluid (based on supply & demand)

which is preferable: money as certificate of actual value or as certificate of faith?

[Sculptor]

I'd rather be fucked with the rough end of a pineapple

I'm sure you have been, many times

only in your dreams big boy!!

[henry quirk]

We just have to be very very careful to allow only bossy people who are also wise to be the rulers.

no

I thought the point of Communism was allegedly equality, and rule by all the workers -- "dictatorship of the proletariat", as Marx would have it.

But it turns out that it always ends up with "rulers," "bossy people,"...let's just call them what they are, really...the Stalins, the Maos the Ceacescues, the Castros, the Kim Jongs...not so much "wise" as ruthless. And the general populace too "equal," too levelled, subdued and fearful of their "comrades" to raise a finger in protest.

That's where Communism ends...as it has, every single time in history.

as I say: communism is alien to how man's head actually works, so any communism is gonna be a forced affair; the central committee or politburo makin' folks do what ain't natural

seemingly: the tyranny of good intentions

but, as I say: the folks promotin' communism (not the useful idiots on the street, but folks in board rooms, folks with tenure, folks overseas) know communism can't work and why it can't work...these folks have no good intentions

so: just tyranny, or -- more directly -- slavery

[henry quirk]

I'd rather be fucked with the rough end of a pineapple

I'm sure you have been, many times

only in your dreams big boy!!

er, I'm not a pineapple...I've never been near your keister...I ain't judgin'

pineapple's up the backdoor? whatever floats yer boat (at least yer not desecratin' your ma's carcass anymore... )

[Sculptor]

I'm sure you have been, many times

only in your dreams big boy!!

er, I'm not a pineapple...I've never been near your keister...I ain't judgin'

pineapple's up the backdoor? whatever floats yer boat (at least yer not desecratin' your ma's carcass anymore... )

Can you please leave your sexual fantasies out of forum posts please?

[henry quirk]

only in your dreams big boy!!

er, I'm not a pineapple...I've never been near your keister...I ain't judgin'

pineapple's up the backdoor? whatever floats yer boat (at least yer not desecratin' your ma's carcass anymore... )

Can you please leave your sexual fantasies out of forum posts please?

pineapples up the bung is your thing, not mine

[Sculptor]

er, I'm not a pineapple...I've never been near your keister...I ain't judgin'

pineapple's up the backdoor? whatever floats yer boat (at least yer not desecratin' your ma's carcass anymore... )

Can you please leave your sexual fantasies out of forum posts please?

pineapples up the bung is your thing, not mine

Stop dreaming about me. You can't have me. I'm heterosexual

[FlashDangerpants]

This thing has a military to protect its borders, a court to decree its laws, and police force to enforce them, it might not be much of a state, but it is a state.

to be clear...

there are multiple, local, minimal courts of last resort to arbitrate local dispute; multiple, local, minimal constabularies to investigate local complaint; a border patrol, voluntary; a militia (everyone)

it might be a nation (I'd like to think so), but it ain't a state

Have it your way. Some sort of thing that must be referred to as not a state every time it is referenced (lest we forget) that has the power to enforce its borders so long as people turn up with rifles every now and then to do so. Perhaps we'll call it a nation, but maybe we should refer to it as a club to preserve the voluntary nature of participation as well as the probably highly regular evictions and ejections that would actually occur.

Let's say some guy, we'll call him FDP, comes into town with a bunch of money he has no need to explain in any way, and buys up the local electricity supply chain.

which supply (there's multiple)? why would anyone sell to you (the current owner or owners has no interest in sellin')?

in fairness: I see your point...what you describe is a possibility (but not a certainty)...all is permissible as long as life, liberty, property are respected, as long as the three are abided

thing to remember: the natural monopoly can stand forever, or fall the day after it comes to be

your alter monopolizes power, for example, and goes under cuz someone (call him HQ) comes in with a n. tesla-based wireless transmission system that renders your fairly acquired system obsolete (it'd cheaper, more reliable, lower maintenance)...and, no, he has no interest in meetin' with FDP to discuss partnership or sale

Well you might get the deus ex machina magical ending to the story it's true. Or you might get open revolt, sullen compliance, and/or people just leaving the territory because it doesn't seem to be working out how they hoped.

I know what they would do, it is the same thing as happens in failed states and mismanaged economies all the time.

I thought trends weren't certainties?

Fair point. The only reaction that makes sense is for them to do what I described.

You can't run an economy of any complexity on neolithic barter principles and lumps of metal.

why not? hard value for hard value, value bein' fluid (based on supply & demand)

which is preferable: money as certificate of actual value or as certificate of faith?

The preferable thing is the one that works. Barter economies are small, the range and scale of trade is minimal, supply chains for manufacturing complex product simply cannot be maintained, saving and investing are constrained, modern life (as it exists in the devloped world) aren't possible. The result is that your small not-state is unsustainable without depending entirely on neighbouring actual states for all complex financial transactions which means you end up dedicating your decimated economy to the pursuit of foreign currency of the sort that can cross borders without having to be loaded up on a muie cart (your petrochemical imports being probably the first thing that dried up when some idiot tried to contract for petroleum futures with physical potatoes).



How does extradition work here by the way? Foreign states can't really sign treaties for that sort of thing when the counterparty to the treaty is signing on behalf of a non-sovereign club. But they also cannot tolerate lawless borderlands where criminals can escape prosecution. So your borders are quite likely to be closed whether your volunteer army patrols them or not, especially if you are also associated with high levels of smuggling, which is kinda why half the people are going to even be there.

[Belinda]

We just have to be very very careful to allow only bossy people who are also wise to be the rulers.

no

I thought the point of Communism was allegedly equality, and rule by all the workers -- "dictatorship of the proletariat", as Marx would have it.

But it turns out that it always ends up with "rulers," "bossy people,"...let's just call them what they are, really...the Stalins, the Maos the Ceacescues, the Castros, the Kim Jongs...not so much "wise" as ruthless. And the general populace too "equal," too levelled, subdued and fearful of their "comrades" to raise a finger in protest.

That's where Communism ends...as it has, every single time in history.

Bossy people includes not only those who take advantage of communism, but also those who take advantage of libertarianism, poverty, international banks, commercial enterprises, and criminal associations. There have been bossy people throughout history ranging through petty kings, dynastic monarchs, Roman emperors, popes, military and naval officers, Vikings, Normans, Conquistadors, and white male upper class bigots.

[henry quirk]

Can you please leave your sexual fantasies out of forum posts please?

pineapples up the bung is your thing, not mine

Stop dreaming about me. You can't have me. I'm heterosexual

no, you're pinesexual

[Immanuel Can]

There have been bossy people throughout history...

Right. And what's the very first thing they always do?

Centralize power. They take charge of everything, through government fiat.

And what do Communists do? Centralize power in big government. So it's the least surprising thing of all when one of these "bossy" types takes over the engine provided to him by the revolution, and uses it to destroy the people. They've prepared their own execution.

It's always that way. And you can't point to a single case where that's not how Communism has played out.