Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

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skeptic23
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Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by skeptic23 »

A fundamental problem continues to be overlooked by academia and our best non-academic thinkers. I call it the tangibility problem. The problem underlies the mind-body problem, the problem that physicalists face to describe what "physical" actually means, and a host of other paradoxes and dual- or multi-isms.

The tangibility problem is the challenge of demonstrating the difference between the tangible and the non-tangible. If a claim that there is a difference cannot be demonstrated, then all questions involving the "reality" of both tangible and non-tangible (non-physical, immaterial, intangible, etc.) "things" become indefinable enigmas. In other words, lacking a referent, non-tangible becomes meaningless and the difference moot.

Of course, everyone "knows" what the difference between tangible and non-tangible is. It's "obvious." That's part of the problem. If it's so obvious, then we can describe what constitutes the difference. Here I'm not referring to the definitional difference between the terms tangible and non-tangible. The definitional difference assumes an ontological difference in order to have any meaning. I'm interested in the ontological difference between whatever those terms refer to in "reality."

The tangibility problem has a twist to help preclude getting distracted with mere definitional concerns (which is why I used the cumbersome "non-tangible" instead of intangible--I know you nit-pickers are out there! :wink: ) The tangibility problem requires that, at a minimum, we describe how tangible is different than observable. Unless we can show that tangibility involves something more than amenability to observation, we have no reason to think that our notions of tangible, physical, or material are different metaphysically from the intangible, the non-physical, or the immaterial, because we have no reason to think that the difference refers to things rather than merely to the limitations of our ability to observe them. If the latter, then by virtue of our limitations we have no information about "non-tangibles" with which to make any claim about them, let alone to consider them as "less real" than tangibles.

Instead of solving the tangibility problem, we inevitably assume that there is no problem, or that it has been solved. Of course, whatever naïve and unexamined concept of "tangible" (or "physical" or "real") we happen to prefer also just happens to be the "solution." Give it a try and see if it's easy. If it's been described so well, you should be able to recite a description by rote. Stating that there is a difference is not the same as describing what the difference consists of.

My suspicion is that the apparent "difference" between tangible and non-tangible is a trick of our minds. I suspect this because at any particular juncture, "tangible" corresponds very closely to those things that fall within the scope of our ability to observe, and "non-tangible" corresponds to anything outside those limitations, whether it eventually proves to be "physically real" or otherwise. As our observational technologies advance, we start to consider things as "real" that in the past would have been derided and ridiculed as imaginary or fantastic by every academy of science. Quantum entanglement or dark energy, for examples. For another, the role of "mental" processes to instigate and heal diseases and pain, (which are now well-established in case you haven't been keeping up,) IOW "mind over matter."

I suspect that our tangible/non-tangible dualisms are leftovers from days in which we believed that "spirit" (i.e., God) is a uniquely different "substance" (yeah, they used to use that term for non-tangibles, go figure,) which operated in a completely different "realm" than "physical" things in the "natural realm." I suspect that these dualisms are reifications of our own cognitive limitations that we attribute to "reality."

Glad to hear your thoughts. And to preclude complaints about over-generalization and caricatures, please. I'm talking about a meta-philosophical issue that I have observed during 40 years of study in both academic and other serious writing, one that cuts across all disciplines. Please focus at the level I'm presenting the problem.

Thanks!
Ginkgo
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Re: Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by Ginkgo »

I could be misreading you but it seems to me you are making a distinction between scientific realism and representationalism . If this is the case then I don't think we can have a ontology of scientific facts. If on the other hand, we add the extra category of naive realism then we do have a ontology based on a level of observation.
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The Voice of Time
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Re: Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by The Voice of Time »

Wikipedia wrote:Tangibility is the attribute of being easily detectable with the senses.
So there you have it, simple as that. Is it easy, it's tangible, is it just observable, then it's just observable.

If you want a real-world example then look at your skin and you'll say that it's tangible, whereas seeing the cells on your skin would require advanced technology such as a microscope.

Tangible/non-tangible (though non-tangible doesn't sound very good a term, intangible sounds much better)
Impenitent
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Re: Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by Impenitent »

sensory impressions are nothing more than that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

-Imp
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Kuznetzova
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Re: Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by Kuznetzova »

skeptic23 wrote: I suspect that these dualisms are reifications of our own cognitive limitations that we attribute to "reality."
Well I think the Fallacy of Reification is the wrong tree to be barking up here. Rather, what was happening with superstitious distinctions in past history was that those medieval people were assuming that their sense organs perceive the world AS-IT-IS. The theory that illness could be caused by microorganisms that are directly inside your body; this was absent from their mental considerations in complete ignorance. So there is a very good reason that people who have responded in this thread have mentioned microscopes.

To reach this conclusion will require lots of reading. (But you said 40 years of study so maybe you already read this material). But anyway, Alfred North Whitehead was living in a time where electricity and radio transmissions were being invented. Though hard for us to imagine, these technologies had a huge impact on philosophy. In particular the conception of what is "material" was being overhauled before everyone's eyes. Invisible, intangible magnetic waves that travel through walls. From a victorian sensibility, that sounds like mystical poppycock. I think a lot of Whitehead's philosophy was a response to this new-found definition of "physical".
Advocate
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Re: Challenge: The Tangibility Problem

Post by Advocate »

>A fundamental problem continues to be overlooked by academia and our best non-academic thinkers. I call it the tangibility problem. The problem underlies the mind-body problem, the problem that physicalists face to describe what "physical" actually means, and a host of other paradoxes and dual- or multi-isms.

Space is the correlation of our external and internal (proprioceptive) sensory experience. Physical means that which is material - in space. The opposite side of that coin is the spiritual/mental/metaphorical. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... y_X2Kbneo/

>The tangibility problem is the challenge of demonstrating the difference between the [i]tangible [/i]and the [i]non-tangible.[/i] If a claim that there is a difference cannot be demonstrated, then all questions involving the "reality" of both tangible and non-tangible (non-physical, immaterial, intangible, etc.) "things" become indefinable enigmas. In other words, lacking a referent, [i]non-tangible[/i] becomes meaningless and the difference moot.

If it can be empirically measured it is tangible. Things are patterns with a purpose (sets of attributes and boundary conditions). tiny.cc/TheWholeStory Reality is consensus experience.

>The tangibility problem has a twist to help preclude getting distracted with mere definitional concerns (which is why I used the cumbersome "non-tangible" instead of intangible--I know you nit-pickers are out there! :wink: ) The tangibility problem requires that, at a minimum, we describe how [i]tangible [/i]is different than [i]observable[/i]. Unless we can show that tangibility involves something more than [i]amenability to observation,[/i] we have no reason to think that our notions of tangible, physical, or material are different metaphysically from the intangible, the non-physical, or the immaterial, because we have no reason to think that the difference refers to things rather than merely to the limitations of our ability to observe them. If the latter, then by virtue of our limitations we have no information about "non-tangibles" with which to make any claim about them, let alone to consider them as "less real" than tangibles.

All concepts are a variety of experience and all experiences are real even if they aren't Of something real. A delusion is a real experience. God is a real concept. Concepts all have material effects but only material things can be externally verified. Metaphors, ideas, preferences, emotions etc. can only be known by the effect they have on people's behaviour, until we have a neural correlate for them, then they're material.

>Instead of solving the tangibility problem, we inevitably assume that there is no problem, or that it has been solved. Of course, whatever naïve and unexamined concept of "tangible" (or "physical" or "real") we happen to prefer also just happens to be the "solution." Give it a try and see if it's easy. If it's been described so well, you should be able to recite a description by rote. Stating that there is a difference is not the same as describing what the difference consists of.

It's not by rote, it's bespoke. It's all there. ^^^

>My suspicion is that the apparent "difference" between [i]tangible [/i]and [i]non-tangible [/i]is a trick of our minds. I suspect this because at any particular juncture, "tangible" corresponds very closely to those things that fall within the scope of our ability to observe, and "non-tangible" corresponds to anything outside those limitations, whether it eventually proves to be "physically real" or otherwise. As our observational technologies advance, we start to consider things as "real" that in the past would have been derided and ridiculed as imaginary or fantastic by every academy of science. Quantum entanglement or dark energy, for examples. For another, the role of "mental" processes to instigate and heal diseases and pain, (which are now well-established in case you haven't been keeping up,) IOW "mind over matter."

The difference is external/internal. We are embodied beings. It's the root of all answers in philosophy and many in psychology.

>I suspect that our tangible/non-tangible dualisms are leftovers from days in which we believed that "spirit" (i.e., God) is a uniquely different "substance" (yeah, they used to use that term for non-tangibles, go figure,) which operated in a completely different "realm" than "physical" things in the "natural realm." I suspect that these dualisms are reifications of our own cognitive limitations that we attribute to "reality."

The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind is about that. As i understand it, when we stopped believing the voice in our heads was god we started developing an advanced theory of mind, self-reflection, etc.

There's another interesting theory i can't find a book about that says children aren't conscious until the first time they lie to their parents.

>Glad to hear your thoughts. And to preclude complaints about over-generalization and caricatures, please. I'm talking about a meta-philosophical issue that I have observed during 40 years of study in both academic and other serious writing, one that cuts across all disciplines. Please focus at the level I'm presenting the problem.

Thanks!
[/quote]

Sure. It's only all the answers to everything. Take what I've said to its logical extreme and metaphysics, epistemology, and eventually physics will fall.
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