Art and truth

What is art? What is beauty?

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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:36 am
"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God.
I am interested in theological aspects, but apparently this is a theme for a separate topic.

***
Tolstoy once said that "The truth is obtained like gold, not by letting it grow bigger, but by washing off from it everything that isn't gold."***

And here we return to the original question, what are the criteria for the truth of art, because art can be false..
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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

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Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:59 am

unless the artist is sincere
Yes, in my opinion this is the criterion, but more precisely,
"and speaketh truth in his heart" (Psalm 15),
because you can tell the truth in your heart, while telling a fairy tale, a "lie", and this will relate to true art.
And man can lie to himself, while telling the "factual truth", but this "factual truth" will not be the truth, because it is a spawn of lies in the heart.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Janoah wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:10 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:59 am

unless the artist is sincere
Yes, in my opinion this is the criterion, but more precisely,
"and speaketh truth in his heart" (Psalm 15),
because you can tell the truth in your heart, while telling a fairy tale, a "lie", and this will relate to true art.
And man can lie to himself, while telling the "factual truth", but this "factual truth" will not be the truth, because it is a spawn of lies in the heart.
I agree with you as to the value of emotion. I even began a thread on conscience which art can help us to remember as opposed to learned morality which easily becomes its opposite.

However emotional awareness has to be protected from self deception.
Matthew 15:17-20
Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
Only the developed rational mind can protect our ability for emotional quality. The truth of art inspires emotional quality and the rational mind to work together in the cause of truth.

As we know the world doesn't want it which is why Jesus was hated

John 15
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
Art arousing objective spiritual emotions needs the rational mind to keep it pure. The only way I know of is through works of art which allow the viewer to experience awe and wonder along with the emotion of humility. This quality of art is directed at a minority. Unfortunately the world must hate the truths it was intended to express.
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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:54 am "...to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
I'm not sure doctors will approve of this conclusion, especially during corona.
The theme of the relationship of religious worldviews interests me, apparently it can be considered in a separate topic.
But still, I will note that Christianity declared love as the main principle. It sounds nice, but in my opinion it is false.
For it closes the road to the main principle - upright in heart, and self-delusion is the root of evil. Not deception, but self-deception.
Upright in heart is the cause, and love is its consequent. (Conscienceless love is not true love, just as shameless art is not true art). And when this equation is reversed, idols are born, which they love so much that they deify. And Christianity, in my opinion, is a classic example of this.
It is clear that this is not said of offense, but out of friendship. For love of one's neighbor is to help him avoid mistakes, "thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbor" (Leviticus 19:17).
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Re: Art and truth

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Sincerity is necessary for a work of art. But sincerity is insufficient. People who design simple decorations are sincere. Soviet, and Hitler-approved art is created by sincere artists but these works have no truth value due to the cramped parameters of the 'truth' they represent.


Some of the colonial era statues now being hidden in museums were paid for by sincere men and created by sincere and talented sculptors, but as representations of truth they should be disrespected.
Impenitent
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Impenitent »

https://laurenralpert.files.wordpress.c ... ion-22.pdf

there was more "truth" and "art" in Riefenstahl's work than a lot would care to admit...

-Imp

p.s. the "news reel" footage of the burning american cities in "peaceful protest" which is no longer shown on main stream media can be turned into the democratic party "Triumph of the will" for comrade joe

gird your loins
Nick_A
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Re: Art and truth

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I've learned that "Art is a method of transmitting human value by means of images, sound and language (language being also accessible through touch)."

So what is a human value as opposed to an indoctrinated value? Nietzsche did say that: "How good bad music and bad reasons sound when we march against an enemy."

What then is an objective human value as opposed to an indoctrinated value?

The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose. The more vivid the subject and the stronger the transmission of feeling, the higher the worth of that work of art.

A work of art worthy of the name must serve as means for transmitting objective values. It does so by creating an emotional pull to rational purpose. It unites emotions and mind as a reminder of a greater good. The problem is that real art doesn't exist in the world anymore. Can art of this quality ever return. Obvious socital devolution suggest it won't We must rely on the past.
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Re: Art and truth

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Nick_A wrote:
The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose. The more vivid the subject and the stronger the transmission of feeling, the higher the worth of that work of art.
But some evil purposes generate emotions and are vivid and communicate very well indeed.
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Re: Art and truth

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Belinda wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:57 am Nick_A wrote:
The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose. The more vivid the subject and the stronger the transmission of feeling, the higher the worth of that work of art.
But some evil purposes generate emotions and are vivid and communicate very well indeed.
I am drawing the distinction between a rational and an indoctrinated purpose. Rational purpose is remembered while indoctrinated purpose is acquired. There is a big difference and art worthy of the name is associated with rational purpose.
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Re: Art and truth

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Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:23 am The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose.
What rational purpose, do you think, Beethoven had in "Fur Elise", for example?
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Re: Art and truth

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Belinda wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:02 pm But sincerity is insufficient.
without upright in heart there is no art. It is necessary, but it's not enough. For example, no one will hear a singer who will sing in an airless space, technical means and abilities are also required.
By the way, it is impossible to be absolutely upright in heart, you can only strive for this, and the curve tends to the asymptote, but does not reach it. It is impossible to eliminate the inner lie absolutely, just as it is impossible to eliminate the force of friction absolutely in nature.
«Who can say, “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”?»

***Hitler-approved art is created by sincere artists***
the Nazis, in principle, declared all humane and æsthetic considerations, and with it conscience, - secondary:
"But when nations are fighting for their existence on this earth, when the question of ‘to be or not to be’ has to be answered, then all humane and æsthetic considerations must be set aside… It is that the vital questions involved in the struggle of a nation for its existence must not be subordinated to any æsthetic considerations… Of course, one doesn’t discuss such a question with the Jews, because they are the modern inventors of this cultural perfume.".

And there was a result following from the declaration of the secondary of adherence to conscience.

***Soviet,***
Usually everyone sympathizes with Robin Hood, and in the Soviet Union, Robin Hood won, they took away from the rich and gave to the poor.
The class struggle was declared primary, while conscience remained secondary.
The rest was the result of this secondary nature.

At all times, art was often opposed to the ruling power, but and Moliere also sometimes had to flatter the king and get his approval.

And in our time, perhaps, will not receive approval, the one who is questioning the ruling democracy, but on the contrary, will receive condemnation. Despite the fact that still among the ancient Greeks who applied democracy, the demagogue - "the leader of the people" became a household name, characteristic of democracy.
And Plato wrote about the morals that democracy fosters - «they euphemistically denominate insolence 'good breeding', licence 'liberty', prodigality 'magnificence', and shamelessness 'manly spirit'».
He wrote that two and a half thousand years ago, but it sounds like it was written now.

***Some of the colonial era statues now being hidden in museums were paid for by sincere men and created by sincere and talented sculptors, but as representations of truth they should be disrespected.***

and Aristotle, a supporter of slavery, - not to respect? I wonder who, for example, to respect?
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Janoah wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:19 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:23 am The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose.
What rational purpose, do you think, Beethoven had in "Fur Elise", for example?
Fur elise was written for a woman who I believe rejected him. It may be wonderful expression but written for pragmatic purpose. Nothing rational about this so why call intense emotional need art rather than expression?
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Re: Art and truth

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 am so why call intense emotional need art rather than expression?

that is, in your opinion, "Fur Elise" is not art?
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 am
Janoah wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:19 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:23 am The purpose of a good work of art is the generation of emotional pull towards rational purpose.
What rational purpose, do you think, Beethoven had in "Fur Elise", for example?
Fur elise was written for a woman who I believe rejected him. It may be wonderful expression but written for pragmatic purpose. Nothing rational about this so why call intense emotional need art rather than expression?
'Art' usually and popularly applies to expressive artefacts, but it did not always do so. The expression of individuals' feelings is a social trend that began to make itself felt in late 18th century Europe.
Beethoven was an exponent of the expressive in music. Elise was a shy and modest young woman and 'Fur Elise' is a musical description of her personality. Beethoven is listed as one of the great Romantic composers.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 am
Janoah wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:19 pm

What rational purpose, do you think, Beethoven had in "Fur Elise", for example?
Fur elise was written for a woman who I believe rejected him. It may be wonderful expression but written for pragmatic purpose. Nothing rational about this so why call intense emotional need art rather than expression?
'Art' usually and popularly applies to expressive artefacts, but it did not always do so. The expression of individuals' feelings is a social trend that began to make itself felt in late 18th century Europe.
Beethoven was an exponent of the expressive in music. Elise was a shy and modest young woman and 'Fur Elise' is a musical description of her personality. Beethoven is listed as one of the great Romantic composers.
That is an essential question: is romantic expression art or just expression? I don't believe it isart since by definition it is illusion. There is no communication of human value which can be remembered..
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