Equality

[Belinda]

Good reads on this, if you're curious, are, "The Dumbest Generation," by Bauelein, or "Endangered Minds," by Healy.

But I myself have experience in primary school teaching and so has one of my sons who is at present a school governor, and two daughters in law who are teachers . All of us are aware of the value of the relationship between teacher and individual pupils. All of us deplore governemnt measures to increase tick boxing as method, and we all want smaller classes. None of us were reared in chaotic homes. Smaller classes can only be got through taxation that pays for more teachers.

I appreciate your experience. I would guess I have more.

If you find yourself among those who were not reared in chaotic homes, I'm very glad for you. I'm afraid that the average young person today cannot say she has your advantages. Even when broken homes, addictions or consumerism aren't destroying their homes, media saturation is. There's a very interesting article, one of many you really should look at...it's short, but it's very telling about what's going on with our children's brains right now. It's at...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... on/534198/

I can tell you that what it talks about, I've also seen at the ground level.

Smaller classes do help the pedagogical situation, but are not really the issue here. The issue is the wholesale capitulation of the public schooling system to technophilia, the naive belief that everything is "better" with a "technological" solution, and the capitulation of parents to the media and to relativism. Smaller classes won't address any of that, so we can save our tax dollars.

Parents want the best for their children and the majority of parents trust the expert educators, the teachers.

Some do. More seem to want a tax-funded babysitting, university admissions or career training service to alleviate them of their parental duties, so they can get on with making money, getting a second husband, or whatever else they consider more important than parenting. You can tell because the vast majority of them, especially those with underperforming children, don't show up on parents' nights. Their support for actual education is minimal; their attitude is, "I'm giving you my kid, so now do the right thing with him, so I don't have to."

That being said, there are glorious exceptions...just not nearly enough of them.

I don't underestimate your concerns which are about what is actually happening.I know this as does everybody who is interested in what is going wrong in society. Part of the problem is badly informed parents. I know a working teacher who is really good at responding to Muslim parents who have special concerns about sexual info for their children.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't underestimate your concerns which are about what is actually happening.I know this as does everybody who is interested in what is going wrong in society. Part of the problem is badly informed parents.

Well, in most cases, they're choosing to be that.

Many of them just don't want to know. School is the place they send their children to get free of their duties, so they can go and make money, or just have a break. They will take any amount of superficial reassurance that things are going fine, and that's good enough for many.

Not for all, of course. But for many. We are not in a generation that is strongly devoted to child-raising.

I know a working teacher who is really good at responding to Muslim parents who have special concerns about sexual info for their children.

And just how does she respond? I'm curious as to what being "really good" at that looks like.

[Belinda]

I don't underestimate your concerns which are about what is actually happening.I know this as does everybody who is interested in what is going wrong in society. Part of the problem is badly informed parents.

Well, in most cases, they're choosing to be that.

Many of them just don't want to know. School is the place they send their children to get free of their duties, so they can go and make money, or just have a break. They will take any amount of superficial reassurance that things are going fine, and that's good enough for many.

Not for all, of course. But for many. We are not in a generation that is strongly devoted to child-raising.

I know a working teacher who is really good at responding to Muslim parents who have special concerns about sexual info for their children.

And just how does she respond? I'm curious as to what being "really good" at that looks like.

I forget her actual words to the boy's father. I wish i could remember exactly what she told me. I do remember thinking at the time she did really well to diffuse a difficult situation for the boy and for the school. She has a cheerful manner, and does like people a lot which gets her off to a good start with stroppy parents.

[Immanuel Can]

I know a working teacher who is really good at responding to Muslim parents who have special concerns about sexual info for their children.

And just how does she respond? I'm curious as to what being "really good" at that looks like.

I forget her actual words to the boy's father. I wish i could remember exactly what she told me. I do remember thinking at the time she did really well to diffuse a difficult situation for the boy and for the school. She has a cheerful manner, and does like people a lot which gets her off to a good start with stroppy parents.

Well, here's the important question. Did she arrange that the child would be quietly taught to accept all sexual practices, regardless of whether or not Islam and the parents approve them, or did she arrange not to teach the child what the parents were objecting to?

[Belinda]

And just how does she respond? I'm curious as to what being "really good" at that looks like.

I forget her actual words to the boy's father. I wish i could remember exactly what she told me. I do remember thinking at the time she did really well to diffuse a difficult situation for the boy and for the school. She has a cheerful manner, and does like people a lot which gets her off to a good start with stroppy parents.

Well, here's the important question. Did she arrange that the child would be quietly taught to accept all sexual practices, regardless of whether or not Islam and the parents approve them, or did she arrange not to teach the child what the parents were objecting to?

Neither. She assured the father of the Muslim boy that the school's policy was to inform children that there were several sorts of families, some of whom had arrangements the children might be unfamiliar with. It is important for the well being of the children and their happiness and information that they learn their little friends are likable chums to be cared for no matter what ethnic or family culture they are accustomed to at home.

Teachers teach about sexual practices according to what is appropriate to the child's age.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, here's the important question. Did she arrange that the child would be quietly taught to accept all sexual practices, regardless of whether or not Islam and the parents approve them, or did she arrange not to teach the child what the parents were objecting to?

Neither. She assured the father of the Muslim boy that the school's policy was to inform children that there were several sorts of families, some of whom had arrangements the children might be unfamiliar with. It is important for the well being of the children and their happiness and information that they learn their little friends are likable chums to be cared for no matter what ethnic or family culture they are accustomed to at home.

Teachers teach about sexual practices according to what is appropriate to the child's age.

Hmmm...in other words, she was deceptively reassuring.

In all honesty, she should have said this: "We have more than your child to worry about. Your child will be taught what I and the school system deem appropriate for his sexual information, when we think it's a good time to do it. Your Muslim scruples do not actually matter to us, and we think we know better than you do what your child needs to hear, and when."

But she wouldn't say that, because although it's what they do in the public schools, parents would rightly be very unhappy to hear it. So she pitched underhand, and got one over the plate.

Well, that's terrific diplomatic skill. And it's no doubt very good for the public school system. Is it good for the parents or the child? That's a very different question.

[Nick_A]

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” Albert Einstein

Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.

So as we've witnessed the results of public education cannot be other than what has already been argued. Just different varieties of the same stuff. Nothing changes

[Belinda]

Well, here's the important question. Did she arrange that the child would be quietly taught to accept all sexual practices, regardless of whether or not Islam and the parents approve them, or did she arrange not to teach the child what the parents were objecting to?

Neither. She assured the father of the Muslim boy that the school's policy was to inform children that there were several sorts of families, some of whom had arrangements the children might be unfamiliar with. It is important for the well being of the children and their happiness and information that they learn their little friends are likable chums to be cared for no matter what ethnic or family culture they are accustomed to at home.

Teachers teach about sexual practices according to what is appropriate to the child's age.

Hmmm...in other words, she was deceptively reassuring.

In all honesty, she should have said this: "We have more than your child to worry about. Your child will be taught what I and the school system deem appropriate for his sexual information, when we think it's a good time to do it. Your Muslim scruples do not actually matter to us, and we think we know better than you do what your child needs to hear, and when."

But she wouldn't say that, because although it's what they do in the public schools, parents would rightly be very unhappy to hear it. So she pitched underhand, and got one over the plate.

Well, that's terrific diplomatic skill. And it's no doubt very good for the public school system. Is it good for the parents or the child? That's a very different question.

You have omitted the important point that children in schools are being taught all lives matter. Narrow minded religiosity , whether it's Muslim, Xian fundamentalist, or politically extreme right must not be permitted to interfere with the children's happiness now or when they are adults.

[Immanuel Can]

You have omitted the important point that children in schools are being taught all lives matter.

That is true; but they're not being taught WHY. And in that case, their belief is not durable.

That's why the same kids can chant "Black Lives Matter," without realizing the racist implications, or support the euthanasia of the elderly and the murder of the pre-born without considering that these, too, are "lives". Their belief in the equality of the value of human life is not equally distributed, not sophisticated, and not well-grounded.

That is because in the public system, they learn it by propaganda, not by comprehension.

Narrow minded religiosity , whether it's Muslim...must not be permitted to interfere with the children's happiness now or when they are adults.

So now you're against the Muslim parents? You think they're out to "interfere" with "the children's happiness"? They're the enemy, and the public school system is fit to judge what is right for children to learn?

Interesting. Which ideology-group of teachers are fit to make that decision? You say they can't be Christian, can't be "politically right"...can they be Jewish teachers? Hindu? Sihk? Zoroastrian? Buddhist? Humanist? Atheist? Nihilist? Can they be "politically left," but not centrist or moderate right?

On what authority would we be justified to make ourselves the arbitor of that?

[Nick_A]

It is rare in these times to find anyone who understands the purpose of sexuality much less sexual energy. So the debate becomes who has the authority to teach ethics including sex ethics? Progressive education asserts it is the Great Beast. Only the Great beast or society itself can be trusted with such monumental decisions. Traditional religions believe such decision concerning human ethics in the darkness of Plato's cave must be a product of understanding the Beast is incapable of. Yet both believe they are capable of teaching what is necessary to achieve equality. And the only equality possible in these circumstances is the equality of tyranny. Not a pleasant perspective.

[Belinda]

You have omitted the important point that children in schools are being taught all lives matter.

That is true; but they're not being taught WHY. And in that case, their belief is not durable.

That's why the same kids can chant "Black Lives Matter," without realizing the racist implications, or support the euthanasia of the elderly and the murder of the pre-born without considering that these, too, are "lives". Their belief in the equality of the value of human life is not equally distributed, not sophisticated, and not well-grounded.

That is because in the public system, they learn it by propaganda, not by comprehension.

Narrow minded religiosity , whether it's Muslim...must not be permitted to interfere with the children's happiness now or when they are adults.

So now you're against the Muslim parents? You think they're out to "interfere" with "the children's happiness"? They're the enemy, and the public school system is fit to judge what is right for children to learn?

Interesting. Which ideology-group of teachers are fit to make that decision? You say they can't be Christian, can't be "politically right"...can they be Jewish teachers? Hindu? Sihk? Zoroastrian? Buddhist? Humanist? Atheist? Nihilist? Can they be "politically left," but not centrist or moderate right?

On what authority would we be justified to make ourselves the arbitor of that?

Teachers are education experts.
There are laws to prevent religious or political bias by teachers ,and indoctrination of school children.

[commonsense]

Interesting. Which ideology-group of teachers are fit to make that decision? You say they can't be Christian, can't be "politically right"...can they be Jewish teachers? Hindu? Sihk? Zoroastrian? Buddhist? Humanist? Atheist? Nihilist? Can they be "politically left," but not centrist or moderate right?

On what authority would we be justified to make ourselves the arbitor of that?

In practice, I think it is the local and state school boards who direct what and how teachers will teach. As board members are usually elected, it would seem that the community decides who will determine the curriculum.

[Immanuel Can]

Teachers are education experts.

That's naive, I'm afraid. Teachers are only experts in pedagogy, and rather unevenly, even in that.

They have no special training or expertise in morals, sexuality or good judgment. They're just ordinary folks. The parents have the relationship and know their own children far better than their teachers ever will, and the teachers are essentially paid strangers...who have no right or justification to interfere with parental rights, and no wisdom to do so.

I know this for a fact.

There are laws to prevent religious or political bias by teachers ,and indoctrination of school children.

Actually, there are none. To teach contrary to a parent's ideology is not only allowed but encouraged. Look what your pal did to that Muslim family. And they do exactly the same to the children of conservatives, or Jews, or Christians, or anybody but the liberal Left. In many places, a child could wear a BLM t-shirt or hat, or a "Free Palestine" or even a picture of Che Guevara the Socialist mass-murderer to school, but never a religious message, or "Support Israel" or "Make America Great Again" shirt. Why is that?

Teachers are permitted to indoctrinate in the creeds and beliefs favoured by the school boards. I've seen it often, and egregiously done. There is an arrogance to school systems, a belief that whatever ideology they choose to indoctrinate children in, it cannot ever BE indoctrination, because (as they suppose) its true, reasonable and just.

Now, I have no truck with Islam, and I have no special desire to see their creed advanced; but parental rights must supercede the imperious, self-righteous dicta of the school system. So it's wrong to subvert parents, especially while not admitting that's what's being done. And the school system routinely does exactly the same sort of maneuver with all other groups; they arogate to themselves the opportunity to dictate what young and impressionable children get to hear by way of ideology.

[Immanuel Can]

In practice, I think it is the local and state school boards who direct what and how teachers will teach. As board members are usually elected, it would seem that the community decides who will determine the curriculum.

You'd think so. But curricula are issued in general guidelines, not specifics; and teachers are experts at teaching it their own ways, adding things in, or changing the focus to suit what they want. They pretty much have a monopoly on the situation when the classroom door is closed. Unless they transgress in such a way and degree that even the students become aware of the propagandizing and report it, they're never going to get called on it.

In truth, teachers are trained in universities, which are overwhelmingly Leftist. And they are "professionally prepared" (very, very badly, I might add -- nothing is quite so incompetent as most teacher-training programs) in Faculties of Education, which are the most Left-leaning of all. So a teacher who promotes Leftism is highly unlikely to be called out or disciplined by his peers or supervisors, unless he gets really, really extreme with it. But a conservative teacher is going to get slapped down immediately for doing a third as much of it as the Leftists can get away with.

[Nick_A]

So IC agrees with Simone as to the limitations of teachers. Will wonders never cease. But where in public education are the teachers who know what it means to get out of the cave who won't be persecuted for such intolerable assertions? If they cannot be found is there a greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination?