the proper balance between idealism and pragmatism

[henry quirk]

Some certainly wouldn’t.

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

Sadly, recent news is filled with more innocents being shot or harmed by the police than are being protected by them. I know it's anecdotal, but it does illustrate your point, Henry.

yep, we live in interestin' times (wasn't that an old arab curse? may you live in interesting times)

[RCSaunders]

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

Sadly, recent news is filled with more innocents being shot or harmed by the police than are being protected by them. I know it's anecdotal, but it does illustrate your point, Henry.

yep, we live in interestin' times (wasn't that an old arab curse? may you live in interesting times)

Spuriously attributed to the Chinese. Called the, "Chinese curse," which no Chinese ever heard of.
Nevertheless it surely fits our times and I'm sure there are many Muslims who'd be glad to take credit for it. (Arabs are actually nice people. Many are Christians and most of the Arabs in the United States are not Muslims, and most of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs.)

[henry quirk]

Spuriously attributed to the Chinese. Called the, "Chinese curse," which no Chinese ever heard of.
Nevertheless it surely fits our times and I'm sure there are many Muslims who'd be glad to take credit for it. (Arabs are actually nice people. Many are Christians and most of the Arabs in the United States are not Muslims, and most of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs.)

[commonsense]

What? Unless some government makes you do the right thing, you wouldn't?

Some certainly wouldn’t.

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

You’re correct and you have underscored the need for more government!

[henry quirk]

Some certainly wouldn’t.

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

You’re correct and you have underscored the need for more government!

I ain't seein' how that's so.

[commonsense]

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

Sadly, recent news is filled with more innocents being shot or harmed by the police than are being protected by them. I know it's anecdotal, but it does illustrate your point, Henry.

yep, we live in interestin' times (wasn't that an old arab curse? may you live in interesting times)

I think that was Chinese, spuriously.

[commonsense]

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

You’re correct and you have underscored the need for more government!

I ain't seein' how that's so.

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

[RCSaunders]

Spuriously attributed to the Chinese. Called the, "Chinese curse," which no Chinese ever heard of.
Nevertheless it surely fits our times and I'm sure there are many Muslims who'd be glad to take credit for it. (Arabs are actually nice people. Many are Christians and most of the Arabs in the United States are not Muslims, and most of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs.)

It wasn't for you, Henry, it was for all the idiots who would turn what I said into an accusation of racism.

[henry quirk]

You’re correct and you have underscored the need for more government!

I ain't seein' how that's so.

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

just the opposite: take away the power that shields criminals; take away the umbrella 'they' all cluster under

expose the lawless and immoral to the direct consequences of what they do

simple example: if the good people of seattle weren't spineless, if they hadn't turned over so much power to employees, then cops wouldn't do the shit they do, and garbage people wouldn't have an excuse to riot, and, if they rioted anyway, the residents, havin' zealously kept power for themselves, would put an end to unrest lickity-split themselves

instead of months of manure there'd have been a night of routing

[henry quirk]

Spuriously attributed to the Chinese. Called the, "Chinese curse," which no Chinese ever heard of.
Nevertheless it surely fits our times and I'm sure there are many Muslims who'd be glad to take credit for it. (Arabs are actually nice people. Many are Christians and most of the Arabs in the United States are not Muslims, and most of the Muslims in the world are not Arabs.)

It wasn't for you, Henry, it was for all the idiots who would turn what I said into an accusation of racism.

you worry too much about the idiots: fuck 'em

accordin' to *some here: I'm a racist; a misogynist; and generally a rotten, no account, jackass

fuck 'em: fuck 'em, I say!









*here's a nasty lil example: Lacewing, who is currently on **your ignore list, made this post.
Display this post.




**that bein' my ignore list

[commonsense]

I ain't seein' how that's so.

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

just the opposite: take away the power that shields criminals; take away the umbrella 'they' all cluster under

expose the lawless and immoral to the direct consequences of what they do

simple example: if the good people of seattle weren't spineless, if they hadn't turned over so much power to employees, then cops wouldn't do the shit they do, and garbage people wouldn't have an excuse to riot, and, if they rioted anyway, the residents, havin' zealously kept power for themselves, would put an end to unrest lickity-split themselves

instead of months of manure there'd have been a night of routing

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t fall for my more-of-a-bad-thing-is-a-good-thing argument.

[henry quirk]

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

just the opposite: take away the power that shields criminals; take away the umbrella 'they' all cluster under

expose the lawless and immoral to the direct consequences of what they do

simple example: if the good people of seattle weren't spineless, if they hadn't turned over so much power to employees, then cops wouldn't do the shit they do, and garbage people wouldn't have an excuse to riot, and, if they rioted anyway, the residents, havin' zealously kept power for themselves, would put an end to unrest lickity-split themselves

instead of months of manure there'd have been a night of routing

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t fall for my more-of-a-bad-thing-is-a-good-thing argument.

oh, I fell for it, just in my own way

even my humiliations are spectacular and unique

I deserve a

[Skepdick]

Yes, the goal is alike with others, but it’s not a group goal. It’s more a competitive goal. In the sense that one person may achieve his goal of wealth for himself and his family, while others may fail, it is non-unique.

Yes, but everybody wants to achieve the goal. Nobody wants to fail at achieving that goal.

And if everybody is to actually succeed at achieving the goal, then the game cannot be a zero-sum game.

So not-playing a zero-sum game is a group goal IF you want to minimise your individual risk of failing at your individual goal.

[Belinda]

You’re correct and you have underscored the need for more government!

I ain't seein' how that's so.

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

Whatever the level of government by sorts of Mafia, that government is insufficient.

No government that lines its own pockets , or legislates to empower itself, is a sufficient government. I wish to God there was an honest government somewhere in his world.

[henry quirk]

Yes, the goal is alike with others, but it’s not a group goal. It’s more a competitive goal. In the sense that one person may achieve his goal of wealth for himself and his family, while others may fail, it is non-unique.

Yes, but everybody wants to achieve the goal. Nobody wants to fail at achieving that goal.

And if everybody is to actually succeed at achieving the goal, then the game cannot be a zero-sum game.

So not-playing a zero-sum game is a group goal IF you want to minimise your individual risk of failing at your individual goal.

stan, lou, and mack all want to achieve and maintain the same thing (keeping their families, safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc)

certainly seems like a group or communal goal till you dig deeper

each man has his own particular take on what it means to further & maintain his family: stan and his are country folk, what they do to further themselves is not the same as what lou (a city dweller) and mack (an off-the-gridder) do

further, all three men (and their families) have different notions about what bein' safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc. means

diggin' deeper, we can see what appears to be group or communal goals are really individual goals