the proper balance between idealism and pragmatism

[Belinda]

It is a mark of civilisation that people pay taxes to be used for the common good. The common good is goods we all share such as educating our young, caring for our sick, defending the nation, building peace between nations, building and maintaining housing, water supplies, food production and distribution, public open spaces for recreation, arts subsidies, public transport systems.Taxation is not theft it is a mark of civilised life.

A case in point of taxation for the common good happened when the Romans quitted Britain. The Romans had Christianised most of the island, and when they left pagan peoples invaded and settled. For a century or more Romanised Christian elites defended parts of the island against the pagan invaders and hostile Picts but were eventually defeated by the invaders.

The Romans, besides introducing a civilised religion, Christianity, had also set up a central administration which collected taxes for the common good of the society , and built physical infrastructure of roads, aqueducts, sophisticated fighting cavalry, and quality housing. All of this cooperative organisation disappeared after the Romanised Britons lost out to the pagan invaders, then the tribalised Dark Ages set in, only ameliorated due to the early teaching of certain aristocratic Christians such as Columba, Ninian, and Patrick. Taxation is a mark of civilisation it's not theft.

[Immanuel Can]

Immanuel, the term 'socialism' does not mean to you what it means to me.

That's all very well. You can make "blue" mean "pink" if you want to, and nobody can stop you. But if your goal is to communicate, then you have to be willing to use language in the way understood by others in society, not according to a private re-defining only you can understand.

Most people understand it to mean something close to, "a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production." (Investopedia)

So if you want us to understand something different by it, maybe you'd better tell us what you think it is.

[Belinda]

Immanuel, I prefer the following from Merriam Webster definition 1

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

[Immanuel Can]

Immanuel, I prefer the following from Merriam Webster definition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Same darn thing, essentially.

So I don't know what you meant when you said "your socialism" isn't the same as mine. It looks like the same beast to me.

[henry quirk]

Of course you never explain how, "sufficiently generous," is calculated or who decides if someone is being sufficiently generous or exactly who one must cooperate with to do what, or who decides that.

who cares who it is?

Apparently you do. What do you think you're voting for when you vote. You're voting for who will decide how much of your money will taken from you and whom it will be given to. Suffrage is just the government's scam to convince the slaves, err citizens, that they are having a say in how the government is run, because they get to choose their latest masters.

It's still slavery, Henry, even when you get to vote for your master, and every time you vote you are giving your assent to the system.

seems to me, we did this once before

apparently you wanna do it again, so...

"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."

[Immanuel Can]

"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."

Nice.

Can I quote you?

[henry quirk]

It is a mark of civilisation that people pay taxes to be used for the common good.

no, it's a mark of civilization that folks have a large say in how much they pay for common services, and, a large say in what exactly comprises common services

based on those two measures (cost & composition) the West is not civilized

we've been hoodwinked into lettin' employees run the show, set the fees, and determine what's in our best interests

as was said (not originally by me): "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."

the first three may have very well been exhausted: might be time to move on to fourth

-----

Can I quote you?

feel free

as I say: it ain't mine

I wanna say it's F. Douglas's, but I might be wrong

anyway: it bears repeatin', as plea and as warning

[henry quirk]

a chartered, natural rights minarchy is about safeguardin' liberty, not balancin' tits & clits

[commonsense]

a chartered, natural rights minarchy is about safeguardin' liberty, not balancin' tits & clits

Are you saying that minarchy, though its focus is elsewhere (I.e. on liberty), cannot provide a balance between idealism and pragmatism?

[henry quirk]

a chartered, natural rights minarchy is about safeguardin' liberty, not balancin' tits & clits

Are you saying that minarchy, though its focus is elsewhere (I.e. on liberty), cannot provide a balance between idealism and pragmatism?

nope

I'm sayin' the balance between idealism and pragmatism is horseshit

simply: the chartered, natural rights minarchy would prohibit slavery and abuse of one by another, of a minority by a majority

that's all it would do (and it would do that only for those incapable of doin' it for themselves [the young, the old, the infirm])

[Immanuel Can]

I'm sayin' the balance between idealism and pragmatism is horseshit

That's a good point, for several reasons.

One might be what we all know about human nature...that human nature is not always trustworthy...people do not always, or even often, in some cases, choose to do the right or best thing. For such people, their "ideals" are base and unworthy, and their "pragmatics" are merely calculating and nasty. Neither end of that equation produces anything good.

For example, Nazism is certainly an ideal of sorts...for Nazis, though not for others. And their pragmatics involve train schedules, gas chambers, crematoria, medical experiments, and saving bullets when executing masses of people.

Where's the good in ANY of that? Does it matter whether we're talking ideals or pragma in such cases? So maybe we need to be asking, "Which 'ideal'?" and "Which pragmatics?"

[commonsense]

a chartered, natural rights minarchy is about safeguardin' liberty, not balancin' tits & clits

Are you saying that minarchy, though its focus is elsewhere (I.e. on liberty), cannot provide a balance between idealism and pragmatism?

nope

I'm sayin' the balance between idealism and pragmatism is horseshit

simply: the chartered, natural rights minarchy would prohibit slavery and abuse of one by another, of a minority by a majority

that's all it would do (and it would do that only for those incapable of doin' it for themselves [the young, the old, the infirm])

So it’s about safeguarding liberty. I get it.

[henry quirk]

I'm sayin' the balance between idealism and pragmatism is horseshit

That's a good point, for several reasons.

One might be what we all know about human nature...that human nature is not always trustworthy...people do not always, or even often, in some cases, choose to do the right or best thing. For such people, their "ideals" are base and unworthy, and their "pragmatics" are merely calculating and nasty. Neither end of that equation produces anything good.

For example, Nazism is certainly an ideal of sorts...for Nazis, though not for others. And their pragmatics involve train schedules, gas chambers, crematoria, medical experiments, and saving bullets when executing masses of people.

Where's the good in ANY of that? Does it matter whether we're talking ideals or pragma in such cases? So maybe we need to be asking, "Which 'ideal'?" and "Which pragmatics?"

or, mebbe, leave each to his own peculiar & particular reasonings with the caveat he's to leave his fellows be in their own reasonings, or else

[henry quirk]

Are you saying that minarchy, though its focus is elsewhere (I.e. on liberty), cannot provide a balance between idealism and pragmatism?

nope

I'm sayin' the balance between idealism and pragmatism is horseshit

simply: the chartered, natural rights minarchy would prohibit slavery and abuse of one by another, of a minority by a majority

that's all it would do (and it would do that only for those incapable of doin' it for themselves [the young, the old, the infirm])

So it’s about safeguarding liberty. I get it.

yep

[Lacewing]

leave each to his own peculiar & particular reasonings with the caveat he's to leave his fellows be in their own reasonings, or else

Does that apply to everything? How people respond to Covid19? Which political direction people lean? Whether or not people are theists?

And what does it mean to leave/let people be? Does that include not harassing or ridiculing them for what they think? Does that mean not making false accusations about people, nor spreading false information that affects them?