Is morality objective or subjective?

[henry quirk]

How could you possibly hear anything? The stuff in your head doesn't exist.

hollow

an echo chamber

My head contains my brain, and both exist. But my brain doesn't contain abstract things. What sort of idiot would think it does, or that abstract things exist somewhere, somehow? Ah - a deluded metaphysician, furkling down a rabbit hole.

from a purely materialistic position: your thinkin' is measurable, it's real

countless electro-chemical actions and reactions

when you think I don't wanna die, this thinkin' is real, as real as a table or apple or platypus

note: I'm not talkin' about moral facts (which we will forever disagree on)

I'm sayin' your thinkin' is real, is a fact; the contents of your thinkin' are real, are facts

so: to say My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact is an error, you're wrong

[Peter Holmes]

hollow

an echo chamber

My head contains my brain, and both exist. But my brain doesn't contain abstract things. What sort of idiot would think it does, or that abstract things exist somewhere, somehow? Ah - a deluded metaphysician, furkling down a rabbit hole.

from a purely materialistic position: your thinkin' is measurable, it's real

countless electro-chemical actions and reactions

when you think I don't wanna die, this thinkin' is real, as real as a table or apple or platypus

note: I'm not talkin' about moral facts (which we will forever disagree on)

I'm sayin' your thinkin' is real, is a fact; the contents of your thinkin' are real, are facts

so: to say My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact is an error, you're wrong

Did I really write such an ugly sentence? Did I really split that infinitive? Do you have the actual passage where I wrote it? If so, I'm ashamed.

Does a brain scan show thinking, or does it show synaptic firing, blood flow, and so on? We call it thinking, but a thought isn't a real thing, like a synapse firing. We say we have minds, but what and where are they? Are they real things, like brains - only different?

[henry quirk]

Did I really write such an ugly sentence? Did I really split that infinitive? Do you have the actual passage where I wrote it? If so, I'm ashamed.

here's where I got it...

My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact.

mebbe I've been hoodwinked?

mebbe skep made a mockery of us both?


Does a brain scan show thinking, or does it show synaptic firing, blood flow, and so on? We call it thinking, but a thought isn't a real thing, like a synapse firing. We say we have minds, but what and where are they? Are they real things, like brains - only different?

accordin' to the materialist: thinkin' is nuthin' but synapses firin', that is: action of the brain

no so long ago, when I was a strict materialist and moral anti-realist, I declared mind as nuthin' but the action of the brain, the same way walkin' is the action of the legs

so: is action real?

[Skepdick]

a thought isn't a real thing

How is it that you know you are thinking then if your thoughts aren't real?

What a fucking idiot.

[henry quirk]

My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact.

[Skepdick]

My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact.

I paraphrased him.

Either it is a fact that Peter Holmes wills to be murdered; or it is a fact that Peter Holmes doesn't want to be murdered.

If he feels he is being mis-represented he can always choose the correct fact.

But since he keeps insisting that his thoughts are not real/factual, I really think my paraphrasing accurately represents his stupid.

[henry quirk]

skep sez: I paraphrased him.

paraphrased, not quoted

sorry, pete, I was hoodwinked

[Skepdick]

skep sez: I paraphrased him.

paraphrased, not quoted

sorry, pete, I was hoodwinked

The words are paraphrased.

The meaning is quoted.

Peter Holmes keeps insisting his thoughts aren't factual/real. Therefore his willingness to not be murdered (which is a thought) is not a fact.

[henry quirk]

skep sez: I paraphrased him.

paraphrased, not quoted

sorry, pete, I was hoodwinked

The words were paraphrased.

The meaning was quoted.

Peter Holmes does not believe his thoughts are real/factual. He keeps insisting it.

you made it seem that pete said a thing he did not, in fact, say

[Skepdick]

you made it seem that pete said a thing he did not, in fact, say

He is saying it!

Read between the lines.

a thought isn't a real thing

^^^ This is a premise which Peter Holmes insists to be true.

IF Peter Holmes does not want to be murdered (and he can correct me here if I am misrepresenting his desires)

It follows that this exact thought exists in Peter's head ----> "My desire to not be murdered is not real."
Therefore this exact thought also exists in Peter's head ----> "My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact"

Which is what I quoted him as saying.

[henry quirk]

you made it seem that pete said a thing he did not, in fact, say

He is saying it!

Read between the lines.

a thought isn't a real thing

^^^ This is a premise which Peter Holmes insists to be true.

IF Peter Holmes does not want to be murdered (and he can correct me here if I am misrepresenting his desires)

It follows that this exact thought exists in Peter's head ----> "My desire to not be murdered is not real."
Therefore this exact thought also exists in Peter's head ----> "My willingness to not be murdered is not a fact"

Which is what I quoted him as saying.

you paraphrased him but made it appear as a quote...this is dishonest (sumthin' I don't think is your natural bent)

you owe pete an apology

[Skepdick]

you paraphrased him but made it appear as a quote...this is dishonest (sumthin' I don't think is your natural bent)

you owe pete an apology

Yes, I made it APPEAR as a quote, but the content of that post represents Peter's actual beliefs, so what you are calling "dishonest" is me getting to the truth.

So what is it that upsets you? That my methods for obtaining the truth from an obscurantists is unorthodox?

All's fair in love and war.

[henry quirk]

you paraphrased him but made it appear as a quote...this is dishonest (sumthin' I don't think is your natural bent)

you owe pete an apology

Yes, I made it APPEAR as a quote, but the content of that post represents Peter's actual beliefs, so what you are calling "dishonest" is me getting to the truth.

So what is it that upsets you? That my methods for obtaining the truth from an obscurantists is unorthodox?

All's fair in love and war.

By occam's razor it'd actually be easier for you to admit you are wrong than to double down on your denial.

but: as you like

[Skepdick]

By occam's razor it'd actually be easier for you to admit you are wrong than to double down on your denial.

but: as you like

Peter actually believes that him wanting to not be murdered is not a fact.

If I am "wrong" about that then go ahead and correct my misunderstanding.

Perhaps you mean I am "wrong" in the moral sense, but Peter doesn't believe in objective morality either, so lying to Peter cannot possibly be "wrong".

[henry quirk]

By occam's razor it'd actually be easier for you to admit you are wrong than to double down on your denial.

but: as you like

Peter actually believes that him wanting to not be murdered is not a fact.

If I am "wrong" about that then go ahead and correct the above.

Perhaps you mean I am "wrong" in the moral sense, but Peter doesn't believe in objective morality either, so lying to Peter cannot possibly be "wrong".

but I do

pete's subjectivism doesn't remove the onus from the realist

again: we're goin' circular

unless you gut sumthin' new to add: I'm done here