There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life

[Immanuel Can]

It is impossible to explain why knowledge is necessary to someone who has decided it isn't.

Is it your supposition, then, RC, that my "deciding" has some impact on whether or not your hypothesis should "win"? I don't see why. It seems to me your hypothesis should stand or fall on the facts. What does my belief have to say about the matter either way?

But one may argue as one wishes. Reason, of course, requires more.

[Skepdick]

I would hope so. So would I because they are a value to me and I could not choose to live without them. But they could not be a value to me if I were not alive and I could not do anything, even give up my life, for someone if I were not alive. Before I can be a value to anyone else, I must be a value to myself. It is no great thing to give up what is of no value in first place.

But it's perfectly rational to sacrifice some value to preserve the majority of value, no? Is called a stop-loss.

Otherwise you are telling me that losing 1% of that which you value is the same as losing 100% of it.

I mean, you could believe that - but it would make you a shitty investor.

That's your choice. I think you are making a mistake, but I would never judge you or fault you for making your own choice.

All of that is moot really. The fact that a whole bunch of people don't consider themselves as the highest value to themselves demonstrates your hypothesis wrong.

[RCSaunders]

I would hope so. So would I because they are a value to me and I could not choose to live without them. But they could not be a value to me if I were not alive and I could not do anything, even give up my life, for someone if I were not alive. Before I can be a value to anyone else, I must be a value to myself. It is no great thing to give up what is of no value in first place.

But it's perfectly rational to sacrifice some value to preserve the majority of value, no? Is called a stop-loss.

Otherwise you are telling me that losing 1% of that which you value is the same as losing 100% of it.

So long as the value is an individual's, one does not sacrifice major values for lesser values. If you throw others into the mix, what most value is irrelevant to one's own values. If more people value making you a slave than you value not being a slave, you do not sacrifice your single value to the majority value.

[Skepdick]

So long as the value is an individual's, one does not sacrifice major values for lesser values. If you throw others into the mix, what most value is irrelevant to one's own values. If more people value making you a slave than you value not being a slave, you do not sacrifice your single value to the majority value.

Individually, I value humanity more than I value my individuality.

Individuals perish.
Humanity persists.

If all people tried to enslave you and nobody was on your team - you are fucked either way.

[RCSaunders]

So long as the value is an individual's, one does not sacrifice major values for lesser values. If you throw others into the mix, what most value is irrelevant to one's own values. If more people value making you a slave than you value not being a slave, you do not sacrifice your single value to the majority value.

Individually, I value humanity more than I value my individuality.

Individuals perish.
Humanity persists.

If all people tried to enslave you and nobody was on your team - you are fucked either way.

What is, "humanity?"

[Skepdick]

What is, "humanity?"

Is this a new concept for you? Try Google.

[RCSaunders]

What is, "humanity?"

Is this a new concept for you? Try Google.

I want to know what you mean by humanity.

Is it a, "thing," a, "substance," or merely a collective term for all the human beings there ever were or will be, or something else?

What does, "Humanity persists," mean? Is it like a bad smell the persists or is it like a sports team that from year to year has totally different members but is still call by the same name? What exactly persists?

And whatever you mean by society, to whom or what is it a value. What good is it? It can't be a value to the individual humans who, as you pointed out, have perished.

Does humanity include all human beings, including every tyrant, murderer, thief, rapist, drug addict, drunk, and thug?

Humanity means so many different things to so many people there is no way for me to know what you mean.

[Skepdick]

What is, "humanity?"

Is this a new concept for you? Try Google.

I want to know what you mean by humanity.

Is it a, "thing," a, "substance," or merely a collective term for all the human beings there ever were or will be, or something else?

What does, "Humanity persists," mean? Is it like a bad smell the persists or is it like a sports team that from year to year has totally different members but is still call by the same name? What exactly persists?

And whatever you mean by society, to whom or what is it a value. What good is it? It can't be a value to the individual humans who, as you pointed out, have perished.

Does humanity include all human beings, including every tyrant, murderer, thief, rapist, drug addict, drunk, and thug?

Humanity means so many different things to so many people there is no way for me to know what you mean.

I stand on the shoulders of giants - humanity.
I know what I know thanks to humanity.
I am who I am thanks to humanity.
Some of the choices available to me in 2020 were not available to anybody in 1950 - thanks to humanity.

Humanity does mean many different things and I mean ALL of those things.

[surreptitious57]

Humanity means only the good within everyone currently in existence so is never referenced negatively [ hence humanism ]
Homo sapiens means all the human beings who have ever existed but it is a scientific term and so it is neither good nor bad
Ground apes means homo sapiens too but is employed in some mildly derogatory capacity but not as often as the other two

[surreptitious57]

I stand on the shoulders of giants humanity YES
I know what I know thanks to humanity YES
I am who I am thanks to humanity YES
Some of the choices available to me in 2020 were not available to anybody in 1950 thanks to humanity YES
Humanity does mean many different things and I mean ALL of those things YES

[RCSaunders]

Is this a new concept for you? Try Google.

I want to know what you mean by humanity.

Is it a, "thing," a, "substance," or merely a collective term for all the human beings there ever were or will be, or something else?

What does, "Humanity persists," mean? Is it like a bad smell the persists or is it like a sports team that from year to year has totally different members but is still call by the same name? What exactly persists?

And whatever you mean by society, to whom or what is it a value. What good is it? It can't be a value to the individual humans who, as you pointed out, have perished.

Does humanity include all human beings, including every tyrant, murderer, thief, rapist, drug addict, drunk, and thug?

Humanity means so many different things to so many people there is no way for me to know what you mean.

I stand on the shoulders of giants - humanity.
I know what I know thanks to humanity.
I am who I am thanks to humanity.
Some of the choices available to me in 2020 were not available to anybody in 1950 - thanks to humanity.

Humanity does mean many different things and I mean ALL of those things.

Not sure I understand any more about what you mean by humanity, but thanks for the answer anyway.

[Skepdick]

Not sure I understand any more about what you mean by humanity, but thanks for the answer anyway.

If you could tell me where your misunderstanding lies, then I could try and clarify for you.

[RCSaunders]

Not sure I understand any more about what you mean by humanity, but thanks for the answer anyway.

If you could tell me where your misunderstanding lies, then I could try and clarify for you.

I still do not understand what you mean by humanity. Are you referring to a particular species of animal or to the collection of such animals as some kind of thing? When you say, "I value humanity more than I value my individuality," I don't know if that means the future of humanity, all of the human beings that ever have or ever will live, or some segment of that you value.

When you wrote: "I stand on the shoulders of giants - humanity," that sounds like a small segment of human beings only including those who made the discoveries and developed the technologies and methods that have improved the human condition, only a handful of human beings, less than .1%.

When you wrote: "I know what I know thanks to humanity," I'm sure you know more than the average human being, and could not have learned what you know from those who know less than you, so they would not be included in humanity.

When you wrote: "I am who I am thanks to humanity," since you certainly could not be influenced by the entire race, those that made you what your are includes only a tiny part of humanity.

And I actually have no idea what, "Some of the choices available to me in 2020 were not available to anybody in 1950 - thanks to humanity," means since many of the choices available to you in 1950 are no longer available to you in 2020. Things change. Try finding a job in a leather factory, writing programs in fortran, repairing any electronics using tube technology, or owning a home and raising a family on a single income.

So, by humanity do you mean only that small number of human beings that were giants, that you learned from, and influenced you?

Or do you mean all human beings, including every tyrant, murderer, thief, rapist, drug addict, drunk, and thug? What about that part of humanity that promoted (and still promotes) slavery, or has slaves today. What about that part of humanity that participates in sex trafficking, especially of children. What about that part of humanity that practices genocide, or terrorism, or periodic slaughters of innocents, like Boko Haram? Do you value them more than your own individual life?

If you mean by humanity the future of the human species (which some people do), the question is, if some catastrophe should wipe out the human species tomorrow, what difference would it make, and to whom?

I'm not making any judgments here. Just looking for clarification.

[Skepdick]

Not sure I understand any more about what you mean by humanity, but thanks for the answer anyway.

If you could tell me where your misunderstanding lies, then I could try and clarify for you.

I still do not understand what you mean by humanity. Are you referring to a particular species of animal or to the collection of such animals as some kind of thing? When you say, "I value humanity more than I value my individuality," I don't know if that means the future of humanity, all of the human beings that ever have or ever will live, or some segment of that you value.

When you wrote: "I stand on the shoulders of giants - humanity," that sounds like a small segment of human beings only including those who made the discoveries and developed the technologies and methods that have improved the human condition, only a handful of human beings, less than .1%.

When you wrote: "I know what I know thanks to humanity," I'm sure you know more than the average human being, and could not have learned what you know from those who know less than you, so they would not be included in humanity.

When you wrote: "I am who I am thanks to humanity," since you certainly could not be influenced by the entire race, those that made you what your are includes only a tiny part of humanity.

And I actually have no idea what, "Some of the choices available to me in 2020 were not available to anybody in 1950 - thanks to humanity," means since many of the choices available to you in 1950 are no longer available to you in 2020. Things change. Try finding a job in a leather factory, writing programs in fortran, repairing any electronics using tube technology, or owning a home and raising a family on a single income.

So, by humanity do you mean only that small number of human beings that were giants, that you learned from, and influenced you?

Or do you mean all human beings, including every tyrant, murderer, thief, rapist, drug addict, drunk, and thug? What about that part of humanity that promoted (and still promotes) slavery, or has slaves today. What about that part of humanity that participates in sex trafficking, especially of children. What about that part of humanity that practices genocide, or terrorism, or periodic slaughters of innocents, like Boko Haram? Do you value them more than your own individual life?

If you mean by humanity the future of the human species (which some people do), the question is, if some catastrophe should wipe out the human species tomorrow, what difference would it make, and to whom?

I'm not making any judgments here. Just looking for clarification.

Do you mind explaining what you think it means to "value" something?

Also, do you understand that language is forever incomplete? As in - it's practically impossible for me to encompass everything that "humanity" means to me without leaving things out.

ALL of those things that you have mentioned - that is what humanity means to me. AND MORE.
I do mean ALL human beings. AND MORE.
I mean all future human beings. AND MORE.

[surreptitious57]

ALL of those things that you have mentioned - that is what humanity means to me AND MORE
I do mean ALL human beings AND MORE
I mean all future human beings AND MORE

Human Clones ? Robots ? Androids ? Cyborgs ?
Transhumans ? Virtual Realities ? The Matrix ?