Trump - a puzzling enigma

[Lacewing]

Still not as bad as the GW Bush presidency. That's when the US truly lost its spirit, not with Trump, who is just a clown, a symptom.

I agree that GW Bush was also a destructive idiot who had no business being president, and I couldn't even look at him or listen to him. But I think both of these characters have been extraordinarily bad for us in different ways. There doesn't have to be a conclusion of who is worse. That's like asking what's worse: a tornado or an earthquake? Tremendous damage has been done due to the toxicity of what we have become.

[Gary Childress]

The enigma is not Trump. He's just another low-life coward, a piece of shit without any redeeming qualities. The real enigma are the massive amounts of truly brain dead dolts who will vote for him no matter what he says and does. With the way it's turning out there probably isn't a single country with such a huge amount of loathsome low-life's as currently inhabit the US of A. One wonders what makes these cretins tick. It can't be anything remotely related to integrity or honesty even if they think they have it which can only be if lame-brained enough not to know the meaning of either.

What do his supporters vote for? I’ve only heard complaints against Biden’s policies and persona, but not anything promoting Trump per se.

Seriously, can anyone tell me?

Going back to this question, I think it's a good one and I think there is a perception among many of Trump's supporters (at least from what I gather from ones I've talked to) that intellectuals have taken over governance of things and that the people (at least not ordinary ones) no longer run the country. I've heard talk about the "alphabet soup" agencies that advise the government and I've heard some politicians expressing disapproval of it. Of course most of the ones I've heard are from the Republican side of things and the Republicans are a bit of an exclusive club for big business themselves, along with the Democrats. But there is that perception that intellectuals are really running the show and that perception is being exploited by wealthy interests that want to do what they want to do. Hence phrases like "drain the swamp" and terms like "deep state".

I mean, most of us would like to believe that a country governed by well informed politicians is the best kind of government, but people I've witnessed and talked to disagree with that perception. They believe that intellectuals are not just advising but pulling strings on our politicians, getting them to do what the intellectuals want. And if a bunch of people want to burn coal like it's (literally) going out of style then they want that freedom, they don't want to listen to climate scientists, for example.

So I think the big rub comes between truth and freedom. If the truth is such that one's freedom to do something seems to need to be curtailed, then which matters most? Of course, that's not entirely how they (Trump's supporters) see it. Some believe that climate change (again for one example) is a hoax or else inevitable so that we should just go full throttle over the cliff and that therefore it's not a matter of freedom vs truth but rather one stictly of an assault on freedom.

So to answer your question, as best I can tell from talking sympathetically to people, that is some of the animus behind Trump's base.

[commonsense]

The enigma is not Trump. He's just another low-life coward, a piece of shit without any redeeming qualities. The real enigma are the massive amounts of truly brain dead dolts who will vote for him no matter what he says and does. With the way it's turning out there probably isn't a single country with such a huge amount of loathsome low-life's as currently inhabit the US of A. One wonders what makes these cretins tick. It can't be anything remotely related to integrity or honesty even if they think they have it which can only be if lame-brained enough not to know the meaning of either.

What do his supporters vote for? I’ve only heard complaints against Biden’s policies and persona, but not anything promoting Trump per se.

Seriously, can anyone tell me?

Going back to this question, I think it's a good one and I think there is a perception among many of Trump's supporters (at least from what I gather from ones I've talked to) that intellectuals have taken over governance of things and that the people (at least not ordinary ones) no longer run the country. I've heard talk about the "alphabet soup" agencies that advise the government and I've heard some politicians expressing disapproval of it. Of course most of the ones I've heard are from the Republican side of things and the Republicans are a bit of an exclusive club for big business themselves, along with the Democrats. But there is that perception that intellectuals are really running the show and that perception is being exploited by wealthy interests that want to do what they want to do. Hence phrases like "drain the swamp" and terms like "deep state".

I mean, most of us would like to believe that a country governed by well informed politicians is the best kind of government, but people I've witnessed and talked to disagree with that perception. They believe that intellectuals are not just advising but pulling strings on our politicians, getting them to do what the intellectuals want. And if a bunch of people want to burn coal like it's (literally) going out of style then they want that freedom, they don't want to listen to climate scientists, for example.

So I think the big rub comes between truth and freedom. If the truth is such that one's freedom to do something seems to need to be curtailed, then which matters most? Of course, that's not entirely how they (Trump's supporters) see it. Some believe that climate change (again for one example) is a hoax or else inevitable so that we should just go full throttle over the cliff and that therefore it's not a matter of freedom vs truth but rather one stictly of an assault on freedom.

So to answer your question, as best I can tell from talking sympathetically to people, that is some of the animus behind Trump's base.

Thanks. I thought as much but had no validation until now.

[Gary Childress]

What do his supporters vote for? I’ve only heard complaints against Biden’s policies and persona, but not anything promoting Trump per se.

Seriously, can anyone tell me?

Going back to this question, I think it's a good one and I think there is a perception among many of Trump's supporters (at least from what I gather from ones I've talked to) that intellectuals have taken over governance of things and that the people (at least not ordinary ones) no longer run the country. I've heard talk about the "alphabet soup" agencies that advise the government and I've heard some politicians expressing disapproval of it. Of course most of the ones I've heard are from the Republican side of things and the Republicans are a bit of an exclusive club for big business themselves, along with the Democrats. But there is that perception that intellectuals are really running the show and that perception is being exploited by wealthy interests that want to do what they want to do. Hence phrases like "drain the swamp" and terms like "deep state".

I mean, most of us would like to believe that a country governed by well informed politicians is the best kind of government, but people I've witnessed and talked to disagree with that perception. They believe that intellectuals are not just advising but pulling strings on our politicians, getting them to do what the intellectuals want. And if a bunch of people want to burn coal like it's (literally) going out of style then they want that freedom, they don't want to listen to climate scientists, for example.

So I think the big rub comes between truth and freedom. If the truth is such that one's freedom to do something seems to need to be curtailed, then which matters most? Of course, that's not entirely how they (Trump's supporters) see it. Some believe that climate change (again for one example) is a hoax or else inevitable so that we should just go full throttle over the cliff and that therefore it's not a matter of freedom vs truth but rather one stictly of an assault on freedom.

So to answer your question, as best I can tell from talking sympathetically to people, that is some of the animus behind Trump's base.

Thanks. I thought as much but had no validation until now.

You're welcome. So it's not just my experience either, then. Sounds like we've both been trying to understand better.

[Lacewing]

So I think the big rub comes between truth and freedom. If the truth is such that one's freedom to do something seems to need to be curtailed, then... /... (it's) an assault on freedom.

That's interesting, Gary. I'm paraphrasing a little... hopefully I'm not misrepresenting your words/meaning.

So, supposed "freedom" wins over truth... even if it leads to our destruction. And it's such an extreme reaction -- because there's no reason we can't honor both.

Extremism is not intelligent or masterful... it's foolish and deadly.

[Gary Childress]

So I think the big rub comes between truth and freedom. If the truth is such that one's freedom to do something seems to need to be curtailed, then... /... (it's) an assault on freedom.

That's interesting, Gary. I'm paraphrasing a little... hopefully I'm not misrepresenting your words/meaning.

So, supposed "freedom" wins over truth... even if it leads to our destruction. And it's such an extreme reaction -- because there's no reason we can't honor both. Extremism is not intelligent or masterful... it's foolish and deadly.

That's quite a paraphrase. Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. I mean, I don't think freedom should win out over truth if the truth is that that particular freedom to do something will lead to intolerable destruction. You're right. That is an extreme allegiance to the ideal of freedom, foolish and deadly as you say. Totally agree.

[Dubious]

So, supposed "freedom" wins over truth... even if it leads to our destruction. And it's such an extreme reaction -- because there's no reason we can't honor both. Extremism is not intelligent or masterful... it's foolish and deadly.

Truth is that which keeps freedom a going concern; they reinforce each other as in freedom to speak the truth...the freedom which mandates the right to express it and truth which requires freedom to endorse it. It's precisely in those societies where freedom is curtailed that truth remains unspoken since most people are not ready to sacrifice their lives to it physically or economically. Freedom is that which allows one to look under the hood with impunity to see what drives the motives and decisions which are made especially in the public domain and who the real beneficiary of it may be being only part of it. If freedom is delimited, as it must be to some extent, then it's revealed by those necessities which truth invokes as conditions upon it.

[commonsense]

One thing I’ve gleaned from posts above is that Trumpers value freedom even more than truth, especially when truth provides obstacles to freedom.

Isn’t that a bit like saying freedom trumps reality and therefore every Trumper should have the freedom to resist reality and be batshit crazy???

[Dubious]

In a land of idiots truth is the enemy.

[commonsense]

In a land of idiots truth is the enemy.

Good point!

[Nitesail]

I came to this forum hoping to be able to find people who actually don't just spew hate and anger but are a group of people who actually discuss ideas, it was a nice thought at first...so here we go.

I'm a Trump supporter. If you want to know who he is and what kind of "people" are his supporters then read on.

Do we all desire freedom? Do we all desire fairness? Do we all want our elected officials to not view their status as if they are pursuing a career? Unfortunately, over the years our elected officials have proven that they care only for their own pockets, their own power, and to hell with the rest of us. They are truly "career politicians", which is something our forefathers never wanted them to be, hence term limits.

Do me a favor, follow the money. How much money did the Obama's have before and after they went into politics? How about the Clinton's? How about Trump, yeah the one who donates his paycheck, who will come out of this with less than he started with monetarily, but not by way of respect at least not in my eyes. He could've lived out the rest of his life in a very relaxed way with his billions. But wait, it's said he's egotistical because this whole presidency is just a power grab? It would have been much more egotistical to keep all his money for himself, to demand he get paid even more for the work he's doing, to pretend he knows all the answers and doesn't need advisors, etc. Do some research on his background and learn about all who he has helped over the years without anyone knowing about it, yeah what an ego!

What fundamentals was this country based on? Freedom for ALL, and to have a government that is of US and for the most part stays out of our lives, that was the original point. Freedom to choose out own path for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So we've had decades of politicians promising us all sorts of things and what are we left with? We have now career politicians who don't give a damn about you, who have some of the craziest "benefits" from being in office you have ever heard of and what do we have? the same ol' empty promises and people that consider themselves smarter than the populace and snubbing their noses at us.

Now along comes Trump, he's a good person at heart, he truly loves and cares for this country, and wants the same thing our forefathers wanted; equal freedom and justice for all. I think people try to read too much into him when he's really a simple guy. He's doing what he's always done, surrounded himself with the right people, specialists in their areas, and this is an important point, Trump doesn't play chess...he plays poker, he's an in-your-face, straight to the truth sort of guy. That's why he has such a grass-roots following, because he's not a politician and the "politicians" hate him for it. Oh and also he's a hard worker who's schedule would run most people half his age into the dust. Although he's highly educated he doesn't lead with that information, and although he's helped hundreds of strangers over the years most people don't even know about it. So if you're fine with the same-old same-old, if you want and expect your government to take care of you all of your life, if you'd rather be lead by the blind as they reap the rewards for your continuing slavery to them then Trump is not for you.

We live in a country that praises the ability to speak your mind, to discuss ideas, but I've found over the years that most people just never grow up. When I was a child I couldn't wait to be a "grown-up". I wanted the respect that I felt went along with that. That I could have a serious conversation with other "adults" and not be yelling at each other like "children". Disagreeing with Trump's policies is your RIGHT. Voicing your opinion is your RIGHT. And what is also your "RIGHT", is to act like a child, kicking and screaming and calling others names when you don't get what you want, even if you're an ADULT and this is a place for common sense discussions. Yep, that's your RIGHT as an AMERICAN. I sure wouldn't want some career politician taking that right away from you.

I hope this gives you some insight as to how wacky and crazy we Trump supporters are. And nope, we're not all guys wearing the American flag shirts, shooting our guns in the air on our way home from church on Sunday. This is the person I've always been, at every age. I want America to flourish and to be the place it was always intended to be, a place out of the grasp of true "idiots" who just want everything for themselves.

[siobhand1]

Just responding!

[siobhand1]

Do yourself a favour and just spend a minute looking at this link.

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/12 ... 2219063296

What is going on here?
1 Trump actually believes his own lies.
2 Trump thinks he is so smart that he can bamboozle a moderately intelligent reporter.
3 Trump is just stupid and confused applying a mindless american exceptionalism and simply cannot believe his own failure, and the failure of the USA, being the country least capbale oif dealing with the virus.

What is your philosophical position Sculptor?

[Nick_A]

I came to this forum hoping to be able to find people who actually don't just spew hate and anger but are a group of people who actually discuss ideas, it was a nice thought at first...so here we go.

I'm a Trump supporter. If you want to know who he is and what kind of "people" are his supporters then read on.

Do we all desire freedom? Do we all desire fairness? Do we all want our elected officials to not view their status as if they are pursuing a career? Unfortunately, over the years our elected officials have proven that they care only for their own pockets, their own power, and to hell with the rest of us. They are truly "career politicians", which is something our forefathers never wanted them to be, hence term limits.

Do me a favor, follow the money. How much money did the Obama's have before and after they went into politics? How about the Clinton's? How about Trump, yeah the one who donates his paycheck, who will come out of this with less than he started with monetarily, but not by way of respect at least not in my eyes. He could've lived out the rest of his life in a very relaxed way with his billions. But wait, it's said he's egotistical because this whole presidency is just a power grab? It would have been much more egotistical to keep all his money for himself, to demand he get paid even more for the work he's doing, to pretend he knows all the answers and doesn't need advisors, etc. Do some research on his background and learn about all who he has helped over the years without anyone knowing about it, yeah what an ego!

What fundamentals was this country based on? Freedom for ALL, and to have a government that is of US and for the most part stays out of our lives, that was the original point. Freedom to choose out own path for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So we've had decades of politicians promising us all sorts of things and what are we left with? We have now career politicians who don't give a damn about you, who have some of the craziest "benefits" from being in office you have ever heard of and what do we have? the same ol' empty promises and people that consider themselves smarter than the populace and snubbing their noses at us.

Now along comes Trump, he's a good person at heart, he truly loves and cares for this country, and wants the same thing our forefathers wanted; equal freedom and justice for all. I think people try to read too much into him when he's really a simple guy. He's doing what he's always done, surrounded himself with the right people, specialists in their areas, and this is an important point, Trump doesn't play chess...he plays poker, he's an in-your-face, straight to the truth sort of guy. That's why he has such a grass-roots following, because he's not a politician and the "politicians" hate him for it. Oh and also he's a hard worker who's schedule would run most people half his age into the dust. Although he's highly educated he doesn't lead with that information, and although he's helped hundreds of strangers over the years most people don't even know about it. So if you're fine with the same-old same-old, if you want and expect your government to take care of you all of your life, if you'd rather be lead by the blind as they reap the rewards for your continuing slavery to them then Trump is not for you.

We live in a country that praises the ability to speak your mind, to discuss ideas, but I've found over the years that most people just never grow up. When I was a child I couldn't wait to be a "grown-up". I wanted the respect that I felt went along with that. That I could have a serious conversation with other "adults" and not be yelling at each other like "children". Disagreeing with Trump's policies is your RIGHT. Voicing your opinion is your RIGHT. And what is also your "RIGHT", is to act like a child, kicking and screaming and calling others names when you don't get what you want, even if you're an ADULT and this is a place for common sense discussions. Yep, that's your RIGHT as an AMERICAN. I sure wouldn't want some career politician taking that right away from you.

I hope this gives you some insight as to how wacky and crazy we Trump supporters are. And nope, we're not all guys wearing the American flag shirts, shooting our guns in the air on our way home from church on Sunday. This is the person I've always been, at every age. I want America to flourish and to be the place it was always intended to be, a place out of the grasp of true "idiots" who just want everything for themselves.

Good post. There is something offensive about the concept of liberty and what America was founded upon. It is so offensive that people are willing to accept psychological slavery and sameness as an ideal to avoid it. Trump promotes liberty which is why he is so hated by a minority

[Lacewing]

I came to this forum hoping to be able to find people who actually don't just spew hate and anger but are a group of people who actually discuss ideas, it was a nice thought at first...so here we go.

I'm a Trump supporter. If you want to know who he is and what kind of "people" are his supporters then read on.

Do we all desire freedom? Do we all desire fairness? Do we all want our elected officials to not view their status as if they are pursuing a career? Unfortunately, over the years our elected officials have proven that they care only for their own pockets, their own power, and to hell with the rest of us. They are truly "career politicians", which is something our forefathers never wanted them to be, hence term limits.

Do me a favor, follow the money. How much money did the Obama's have before and after they went into politics? How about the Clinton's? How about Trump, yeah the one who donates his paycheck, who will come out of this with less than he started with monetarily, but not by way of respect at least not in my eyes. He could've lived out the rest of his life in a very relaxed way with his billions. But wait, it's said he's egotistical because this whole presidency is just a power grab? It would have been much more egotistical to keep all his money for himself, to demand he get paid even more for the work he's doing, to pretend he knows all the answers and doesn't need advisors, etc. Do some research on his background and learn about all who he has helped over the years without anyone knowing about it, yeah what an ego!

What fundamentals was this country based on? Freedom for ALL, and to have a government that is of US and for the most part stays out of our lives, that was the original point. Freedom to choose out own path for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So we've had decades of politicians promising us all sorts of things and what are we left with? We have now career politicians who don't give a damn about you, who have some of the craziest "benefits" from being in office you have ever heard of and what do we have? the same ol' empty promises and people that consider themselves smarter than the populace and snubbing their noses at us.

Now along comes Trump, he's a good person at heart, he truly loves and cares for this country, and wants the same thing our forefathers wanted; equal freedom and justice for all. I think people try to read too much into him when he's really a simple guy. He's doing what he's always done, surrounded himself with the right people, specialists in their areas, and this is an important point, Trump doesn't play chess...he plays poker, he's an in-your-face, straight to the truth sort of guy. That's why he has such a grass-roots following, because he's not a politician and the "politicians" hate him for it. Oh and also he's a hard worker who's schedule would run most people half his age into the dust. Although he's highly educated he doesn't lead with that information, and although he's helped hundreds of strangers over the years most people don't even know about it. So if you're fine with the same-old same-old, if you want and expect your government to take care of you all of your life, if you'd rather be lead by the blind as they reap the rewards for your continuing slavery to them then Trump is not for you.

We live in a country that praises the ability to speak your mind, to discuss ideas, but I've found over the years that most people just never grow up. When I was a child I couldn't wait to be a "grown-up". I wanted the respect that I felt went along with that. That I could have a serious conversation with other "adults" and not be yelling at each other like "children". Disagreeing with Trump's policies is your RIGHT. Voicing your opinion is your RIGHT. And what is also your "RIGHT", is to act like a child, kicking and screaming and calling others names when you don't get what you want, even if you're an ADULT and this is a place for common sense discussions. Yep, that's your RIGHT as an AMERICAN. I sure wouldn't want some career politician taking that right away from you.

I hope this gives you some insight as to how wacky and crazy we Trump supporters are. And nope, we're not all guys wearing the American flag shirts, shooting our guns in the air on our way home from church on Sunday. This is the person I've always been, at every age. I want America to flourish and to be the place it was always intended to be, a place out of the grasp of true "idiots" who just want everything for themselves.

Good post. There is something offensive about the concept of liberty and what America was founded upon. It is so offensive that people are willing to accept psychological slavery and sameness as an ideal to avoid it. Trump promotes liberty which is why he is so hated by a minority

So, can either of you see how skewed your posts are in order to support Trump (a man who lies constantly), and in order to falsely characterize people who don't support Trump?

Seriously... most of us want the same things, regardless of political platforms. You can point all day long at leaders on the left... but let's see you focus your razor-sharp assessment on leaders on the right... including Trump and all of his lies and corruption. THAT MATTERS. Let's see you focus your razor-sharp assessment on Trump supporters, as much as you focus it on non-Trump supporters. Are you even capable of doing that in all honesty?

Until you look at the entire landscape of insanity and noise, you're not seeing anything very clearly. Rather you're defending a position... and IT TOO is based on all that you claim to abhor. It is full of toxicity and dishonesty, right out in the open.

If you really want to support freedom and truth, hold Trump accountable too. He DESERVES to be held ACCOUNTABLE. Stop the madness from ALL leaders. If you support any form of insanity, you are not eradicating it!

My boyfriend voted for Trump. I do not think highly of Trump at all (although I do not wish him ill). We are both good people who generally want the same things. We are planning on switching to independent. Stop dividing people into absurd categories in which you get to claim that you're on the "correct" side, and that ONLY the other side is mean or childish. Seriously, we need to step back and see all of this for what it is, and the role we play in perpetuating it. The leaders want us to think we're on the correct side by following THEM, so they will court us and appeal to us. All of us should pay attention to the imbalances and dishonesty across the entire landscape... and acknowledge them, not excuse them, nor blame someone else. Stop following. Stop supporting. Demand accountability from ALL leaders -- else we show that we're willing to be led by lies and platforms.