An Interview With A Moralist

[commonsense]

Anyone who fails to produce will starve to death, unless they steal someone else's food.

Oh! So you must be a farmer then. When last did you produce your food?

Productivity applies to people who are not farmers, too.

If an employee, in any field of endeavor, can earn a paycheck, he can trade money for food without directly producing the food.

[Skepdick]

Nature is amoral; your objection if groundless.

But you are part of nature. Therefore you are amoral?

Oh. Deja vu!

Oui!

Well then you have no grounds to object when I deprive you of of things you claim to be your 'own'.

Stealing is amoral.

[Skepdick]

Take a deep breath and I'll explain.

To produce means to use one's own mind and effort to make a product or perform a service that someone else is willing to trade a product or service they produce in exchange for. To facilitate such exchanges human beings used the medium of exchange, money.

Money is a recent invention.

People used to barter before that.

How's this for a bartering deal: You give me your cows and I'll let you live.

Because nature is amoral.

[commonsense]

Nature is amoral; your objection if groundless.

But you are part of nature. Therefore you are amoral?

Humans, as a part of nature, are amoral. But when a person rises above his animal self, he may be something more than a biological mass.

[RCSaunders]

Well then you have no grounds to object when I deprive you of things you claim to be your 'own'.

I wouldn't object, but I'd wonder why you risked your life and lost it to do so.

Your view that, "morality," is some mystical magical thing that determines what is right or wrong will get you killed. It is wrong for a human being to be a parasite, not because it is, "immoral," but because it in defiance of the requirements of his own nature. Defy your nature if you like, but you'll not do it without consequence.

[RCSaunders]

How's this for a bartering deal: You give me your cows and I'll let you live.

Is that your, "moral," view of human relations? That is not bartering (which is a voluntary trade of value for value). You have described extortion.

Why are you so against the idea of individuals supporting their own lives?

[Skepdick]

Humans, as a part of nature, are amoral. But when a person rises above his animal self, he may be something more than a biological mass.

You mean you might assign a greater value to yourself than you assign to nature?

Yeah! That's how morality starts.

[Skepdick]

I wouldn't object, but I'd wonder why you risked your life and lost it to do so.

And why would you risk your life over cows you didn't even produce?

Your view that, "morality," is some mystical magical thing that determines what is right or wrong will get you killed.

Doubtful. There's more of us. We are younger and stronger than you.

It is wrong for a human being to be a parasite, not because it is, "immoral," but because it in defiance of the requirements of his own nature. Defy your nature if you like, but you'll not do it without consequence.

Given your age, I am calling your bluff.

[Skepdick]

How's this for a bartering deal: You give me your cows and I'll let you live.

Is that your, "moral," view of human relations? That is not bartering (which is a voluntary trade of value for value). You have described extortion.

There's no difference between bartering and extortion in an amoral system.

Why are you so against the idea of individuals supporting their own lives?

I am NOT against the idea. I am encouraging you to support your life by voluntarily giving me your cows.

[Skepdick]

Productivity applies to people who are not farmers, too.

If an employee, in any field of endeavor, can earn a paycheck, he can trade money for food without directly producing the food.

Only if the person you want to buy the food from recognises the money you are offering as a valid tender.

In collapsed societies money is worth literally nothing. It's even worse than toilet paper because it chafes your ass.

The hyperinflation in post-WW1 Germany was one such example.

[commonsense]

Productivity applies to people who are not farmers, too.

If an employee, in any field of endeavor, can earn a paycheck, he can trade money for food without directly producing the food.

Only if the person you want to buy the food from recognises the money you are offering as a valid tender.

In collapsed societies money is worth literally nothing. It's even worse than toilet paper because it chafes your ass.

The hyperinflation in post-WW1 Germany was one such example.

OK, trade something else recognized as having value.

[Skepdick]

OK, trade something else recognized as having value.

Is exactly what I am doing. I am bartering with the thing you value most. Your life.

I'll let you keep it if you give me your cows.

[Gary Childress]

Well then you have no grounds to object when I deprive you of things you claim to be your 'own'.

I wouldn't object, but I'd wonder why you risked your life and lost it to do so.

Your view that, "morality," is some mystical magical thing that determines what is right or wrong will get you killed. It is wrong for a human being to be a parasite, not because it is, "immoral," but because it in defiance of the requirements of his own nature. Defy your nature if you like, but you'll not do it without consequence.

Good grief. What a lame argument.

[commonsense]

OK, trade something else recognized as having value.

Is exactly what I am doing. I am bartering with the thing you value most. Your life.

I'll let you keep it if you give me your cows.

You seem to be insisting on raising the stakes until you reach the absurd. Allow me to assist:

The farmer decides he’ll keep his cows and detonate a nuclear bomb on your ass.

You (the productive member of society who eats food but does not grow it himself) decide to retract your earlier offer out of concern for your survival.

Instead, you (a skilled carpenter) offer to repair the farmer’s barn in return for one cow.

[Skepdick]

You seem to be insisting on raising the stakes until you reach the absurd. Allow me to assist:

The farmer decides he’ll keep his cows and detonate a nuclear bomb on your ass.

Why is it absurd? A nuclear bomb kills you, me, the cows - everybody.

I've given you a much more tolerable outcome, surely?

Unless I was wrong about you valuing your own life. In which case... kill yourself and leave me the cows.