Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

[Age]

As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.

I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.

Doesn’t it seem as though we may be in the midst (or at least at the beginning stages) of a “great undoing” at this very moment?

But WHY 'undo any thing'? The past is to be LEARNED FROM, NOT just erased.

If you were to just undo the past wrongs, then HOW are you going to Truly LEARN HOW to become better people and human beings?

It is the actual MISTAKES, which human beings have done and ARE making that NEED to be LOOKED AT and LEARNED FROM. Also, if your want to replace an old paradigm, and you have NOT YET be successfully able to, then that might suggest that your "new" one is NOT one that is True and Right, and thus NOT agreed with and accepted by EVERY one. Obviously, only ONE that is accepted and agreed with by EVERY one is thee only ONE that could do the 'replacing'.

However, instead of an “undoing,” I like to think of it as being a transitioning from one paradigm bubble to another. And until we completely pass-through the “blurry film,” so to speak, of the new bubble, confusion and chaos will reign.

Well if you learn HOW to express it clearly and succinctly, in very simple and very easy terms so that it is Truly understood, then there will OBVIOUSLY be NO confusion NOR chaos at all.

Also, if the so called "new" paradigm is one that ALL agree with AND accept, then there will be NO "blurry film" at all either.

Do you have a "new" paradigm, which you would like to share with us?

If yes, then will you share it here, in this forum, now?

...it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.

I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure.

It’s not only that (and I’m not implying that it’s much different now), but until modern times, the majority of humans on earth were so preoccupied with the mere process of survival that they simply didn’t have the time (or the education, or the inclination) to develop their own theories regarding creation, or to question the authority of the “powers that be” and risk being an outcast.

I think you will find that your view about the majority of humans were so preoccupied with the mere process of survival that that simply did not have to the time (or for any other reason) to develop their own theories regarding creation will be incorrect. But, considering I have absolutely NO idea the length of period you are referring to when you use the word 'humans', nor have any idea how you came to such a conclusion, that a fair bit of clarifying questioning would be need for you to be able to back up and support this claim of yours. Are you willing for this challenge?

By the way, to catch, hunt, and/or gather a meal only takes a few or so hours, which could last a day or more, and before the invent of printing presses, televisions, computers, and internet, then what I think you might find is human beings had FAR MORE time to just sit around dreaming up and telling stories, including ones about creation, itself, than human beings have the time to now to think about creation, itself, in the days when this is being written. Human beings, in the days of when this is written, have FAR LESS time to just think and wonder as they spend almost all of their waking moments in their pursuit of doing what it takes in order to gain MORE and MORE money, so that they can spend it at any time they have left after wasting countless hours looking at whatever they use to gather the completely unnecessary information, which they seem to not be able to get enough of.

Therefore, logically, the established religion in the region where they were born would be the “go-to” source for their spiritual knowledge.

Just like the "established religion" in the region where you were born and mostly are is more likely to just be the source of "media", which you 'go-to'.

The atheists knock religion, but the problem is that most humans have a conscience that oftentimes needs a means by which genuine (and painful) feelings of guilt (for whatever reason) can be softened or eliminated. In which case, religions (even though flawed and founded upon dubious origins) clearly provide that vital service to humans.

Depending on how one defines and uses the word 'religion' will then effect how and what light they SEE 'religion' IN.

How one defines and uses the words they do is solely based on and depended upon what circumstances that they found themselves brought up in.

Not to mention the comfort and solace that religious ideas provide for the mourners at funerals, and for the sick.

What do you mean?

The people who I see the most distressed are the ones at funerals and/or when at their deathbeds. It is like 'you', human beings, were under some sort of illusion that you were going to live forever, without absolutely NO understanding at all of what actually HAPPENS.

Also, the ones who are the most distressed at funerals appear to be the ones who feel the most saddened by what they, themselves, have LOST. Once again, they appear to be crying for them 'self' only, from what they have lost and will miss out on. Again, this overarching sense of one's self is at the center of it ALL, and so they are saddened for them, and them 'self' only. Otherwise what are they actually sadden for and crying about EXACTLY?

But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies...

Yes, and you are talking about millions of humans across the U.S.

Indeed, you have just highlighted (in what I bolded above) the near impossibility of reasoning with groups of humans who walk through life in an even deeper state of somnambulism than the rest of us.

And do NOT forget that 'you' are just one of those "other" human beings, who is still just an amoeba in relation to Intelligence, which talks to 'you'.

'you', the human being, in the days of when this is being written, is just like the ape is, in regards to understanding and comprehending what a human being says to it. An ape does NOT fully understand and comprehending what the human being says, just like human beings, in the days of when this is being written, do NOT fully understand and comprehend what Intelligence is saying to 'you'.

I mean, if these people aren’t even awake enough to recognize a glaringly obvious wolf in sheep’s clothing,...

I mean, 'you', human beings, are NOT YET ever OPEN (or awake) enough to recognize the glaringly OBVIOUS things that 'I' have been telling 'you'. But, to Me, WHY this is so is ALREADY KNOWN, and is Truly understandable. This is thee WAY things EVOLVE.

(a wolf that doesn’t even bother to wear the head part of his sheep costume )

...then any attempt to awaken them into higher levels of metaphysical understanding is a fool’s errand.

(Though we must keep trying in the hope that a “seed” of information may one day sprout and blossom.)

I just suggest that you have thee FULL and ACCURATE information, just in case you ever put yourself out there to be questioned and/or challenged. Do you feel that you would be READY to be FULLY questioned and/or challenged?

Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”

I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue. I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it...

That’s a great story, Lacewing, thanks for that.

And I too experienced a similar awakening to the realization of a larger universe.

However, instead of it being an awakening emerging from turmoil,...

(and with the help of a powerful entheogenic substance, along with what seemed to be a perfectly timed delivery of news regarding the death of a loved one)

...mine was spectacularly wonderful, for it felt like a window had opened between the material world and the spiritual world – a window that (in time) allowed me to peer into what (I think) awaits us on the other side of the proverbial “veil.”

(Btw, I’m not so lost in my beliefs that I am beyond realizing that I could be wrong.)

GREAT, this is one of the first steps to gaining True understanding.

But would you like to start to express what you think awaits us on the, so called, "other side"?

If yes, then great, what do you think awaits 'you', human beings, on the so called "other side"?

And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.

Personally, I would be wary of plans or blueprints for a new paradigm, because those would likely have more unevolved agendas built on unevolved beliefs...

Alluding back to my earlier comment on how the majority of people on earth simply do not have the time, or the inclination, or the mental wherewithal (consider the Trump crowd, for example) to explore the mysteries of reality, then the creation of new and formalized spiritual edifices...

(i.e., new spiritual concepts that, hopefully, are much more logical than the ones being replaced)

...are still going to be something that humans continue to rely on.

Why not just use the actual concepts that fit in logically and perfectly with what IS actually thee Truth of things?

WHY just make up a whole new set of concepts, which could be just as FALSE and WRONG as the old ones were anyway?

Or, when you LEARN and gain True understanding, itself, and then you will learn HOW to SEE what is actually True and Right from what is actually False and Wrong in the old concepts.

And even though they (the new concepts) may still fall short of the ultimate truth, as long as they can replace the old paradigm nonsense of Hells, and demons, and realms of eternal torture that the occupants of Heaven are perfectly fine with, then it will be a step in the right direction.

Just curious, are you actually ABLE TO explain HOW the "old" paradigm/concepts of hell, demons, and realms of eternal torture that the occupants are supposedly perfectly fine with is NOT the True, Right, and correct paradigm/concept?

If you, then please go ahead and do it.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

Right back at ya! And be careful what you ask for!
_______

I also would like to hear more of your thoughts, especially in regards to which ones EXACTLY of the "old" concepts are False and Wrong, and HOW and WHY those "old" concepts are actually False and Wrong, and HOW you actually KNOW this. I would also love to hear your thoughts about what EXACTLY are the "new" concepts, and HOW and WHY your "new" concepts are actually True and Right.

[Age]

_______

In response to gaffo, Age, and DAM...

According to Wiki:

In religion and folklore, Hell is an afterlife location in which evil souls are subjected to punitive suffering, often torture as eternal punishment after death. Religions with a linear divine history often depict hells as eternal destinations, the biggest examples of which are Christianity and Islam...

(Note that according to religious dogma, a hell-bound “evil soul” is anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal savior, or rejects the teachings of Islam.)

The OP question was directed at the Christians and Muslims (or anyone else) who ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the existence of Heaven and Hell as they are often depicted in the ancillary lore of their corresponding religions.

The OP sets-up a very simple premise that asks what one who was lucky enough (pious enough) to make it into Heaven would do if they were given the option of sacrificing their eternal life in Heaven in order to save a loved one who is suffering in Hell.

Unfortunately, all of the contributors to the thread thus far appear to be neither Christians nor Muslims nor anyone who believes in the existence of Hell, and are therefore sidetracking the purpose of the OP with their comments.

Now if someone wants to create a thread where we can all debate the absurdity of Hell, then I will be at the top of the list of those who will offer arguments as to just how ridiculous the idea of Hell actually is, as is depicted in one of my personal illustrations below...



And just in case the dialogue in the caption bubbles is too small or blurry to read, then here is a rundown of what is being said:

Little girl: “Please help me daddy, they’re hurting me! Please daddy, help me!”

Dad: “Sorry punkin, but daddy’s in heaven now and heaven wouldn’t be ‘perfect’ if I had to worry about you....Besides, we told you what would happen if you didn’t believe in ‘our’ concept of God....By the way, how’s your grandma doing?...Oh never mind, why should I care?...I’m in heaven.”

God: “After she has suffered a billion years of unspeakable burning agony, she’ll be sorry she ignored me....I will then continue her torture throughout all eternity....Does anyone doubt the fairness of my judgment?”

1st angel: “Your fairness and mercy are without equal.”

2nd angel: “In the name of love she’s getting exactly what she deserves.”

And, of course, beneath the daughter and the demons is not Satan, but God; the creator and sustainer of all realities - including Hell.

And yes, all of that is utterly ridiculous, yet it is precisely what all of the hellfire and brimstone preachers of Christianity and Islam must accept as being possible if Heaven and Hell are real destinations of the human soul.

Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.
_______

Emmanual Kan/Can is a Christian, and a good fellow with a heart and mind. I think you might consider PM-ing him and point him to this thread for him to give his views on this matter.

your original question is brilliant - for its about Love for another - and its apt!

your cartoon above is also brilliant and address the same question (obviosly) - you may know about the similar account mentioned in Gosple of Luke about one in Heaven taking pity upon the other in Hell (Lazerus)...........and god saying in effect, you take pity in vain for i placed a wall bet heaven and hell that will never be cross-able.

Yes, you take 'pity in vain', IF it is you, yourself, who did NOT do what it takes to create peace and love (Heaven) for them.

[Age]

...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
_______

Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.

There is the bigger picture per Religionists (they affirm eternal life yes?) that means no-one dies (their soul never dies).

and so lets look at this logically - assuming we all are immoral (our souls are) - per Religionist view.

so in fact if we are place here on this planet for a VERY short time - 80 yrs or 8 yrs (compared to eternity as an immortal soul after corporial death via the short span).

then all actions here on earth are 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the timeline of the immortal soul.

so why would one's actions while on Earth - good or ill matter?

BECAUSE what one does on earth is what creates the life their loved ones have to live in, forever more. This Life, which we are ALL in is obviously the ONLY One. So, what we do NOW creates the live we, and "others", have to live in, eternally.

if this life is only 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 percent of said souls life?

If you SERIOUSLY want to look at this LOGICALLY, then you NEED to take a few steps back.

Explain what 'soul' means, to you? And then explain HOW that fits in with being immoral, and fits in with eternity.

to me it seems nonsense, logically any actions - good/bad/"sins" or rightious conduct of said souls OUTSIDE OF THIS LIFE ON EARTH would make up 99.99999999999999 percent of said souls actions in the other "after death" realm.

BECAUSE what you DO, teaches children HOW they will behave and/or misbehave, which then influences what life is created here IN THIS LIFE ON EARTH.

I thought you said, "so lets look at this logically"? If you are going to look at this 'logically', then you have to FIRST describe how there could 'logically' be "another life outside of this life in this Universe"?

now if each person had a corporial lifespan of a billion yrs or so (30-percent of the timeline of our universe), then maybe the actions we take here and the "Sins" we commit here on earth would matter via the timeline of our immortal souls.

WHAT?

How could a billion years or even a thousand billion years or even more have absolutely ANY bearing on an immortal soul. A billion billion years is relatively NOTHING in relation to 'eternity'.

maybe.

but we do not live a billion yrs on earth, and so any sins we commit here are litterally irrelivent to the larger picture of immortality and freewil of post death souls post o-day of death on earth to a trillion yrs into the future.

The WHOLE ISSUE here is LOST to illogical views and interpretations.

It is as simple as; If EVERY one on earth was already living in peace and harmony with one another, then you would have grown up only knowing love and peace for one another, and therefore you would NOT know nor have hatred for another, and so you would NOT be doing what causes friction, conflict, and wars. Therefore, what adults do and how they behave will create how 'we', collectively, and not individually, live, for eternally more.

A person does NOT die and go live somewhere else, for eternity. But how a person behaves, or misbehaves, effects how people will live HERE, for eternity.

[Age]

...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?

Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.

Sorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.

Because we are talking about a situation where according to Christian dogma, the one and only crime that one can commit that will guarantee a ticket to Hell is the failure before you physically die...

(be it through intentional rejection, or purely circumstantial - as in dying as an infant, for example)

...to be run-through the ritualistic process where Jesus can wipe-clean your inherited stain of “original sin.” Otherwise, you’re a goner.

not quite, if you are born before Jesus died and went to Hell, he saved you - for we are told he decended to Hell the 3 days he was dead, and preached to those in Hell, and those that beleived in Him were granted Heaven.

Peter 2.

----------

now if you died on the 4th day of Christ's Chrucifiction, up to right now - and are a sinner and reject Christ - you are fucked.

When you discover and/or learn what the word 'christ' actually references, especially in regards to the second coming of 'christ', then you will FULLY understand how and why 'you' are, so called, "fucked".

for Christ only saved those that repented in Hell that resided there prior to his assumption into Heaven.

Yes, which fits EXACTLY with what is True and about to HAPPEN.

----------

it sucks, its a "get out of Hell free" card, but you have to have died before Christ's 3-day of death - in order to hear him and him save you from Hell.

Well that is one "interpretation".

----------

I welcome a Peter 3 addendum that allows the rest of us reprobates in Hell to hear Christ and accept and be saved, but until there is a Peter 3 grafted into the Cannon, I'm fucked.

born 2000 yrs too late for salvation from Hell. and so must burn forever.

And, once again, ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of a human being only thinking about this in regards to its 'self' only, and what 'it' can get out of this. The typical perspective of the adult human being when looking into thing like this is in regards to what is " in it for 'it' ".

[Age]

How ALL of 'you' can sit there on your screens reading this in your extremely greedy and smug ways, thinking you KNOW things, while causing CHILDREN to SUFFER and ALLOWING them to die just because you do NOT want to share your absurd monetary wealth.

You sound like a very hateful person, Age.

Good, I wanted to APPEAR that way to 'you'. See, if you look back at the way you write about so called "religious" people you might SEE a bit of that 'hatred' in 'you' as well.

You are making claims about people you don't even know, while projecting what appears to be your own smugness onto others.

Great. See how EASILY it HAPPENS?

Or, can you seriously NOT see yourself doing this?

Why are you focused on a website like this if you think there is much work to be done elsewhere, and that people here are doing nothing?

BECAUSE I want to learn how to communicate with human beings better. Supposedly who are the so called "best" people to critique, question, and challenge the way one expresses their views?

If it is not the people in a so called "philosophy" forum, then who else would you recommend that would question and challenge the validity of ones positions? Where else would you recommend to look for people who are supposedly able to truly logically reason thoughts and perspectives?

Perhaps you should get over yourself. Your claims are not believable... in the time that this is written, nor any time previously.

Okay. But is that ALL you have to say? Will you NOT provide ANY explanation NOR evidence for you claim here?

[Age]

blah, blah, blah

Age, you are still writing in a way that is of no interest or value to me.

Yet here you are reading, and reply.

Take all of your claims and opinions and viewpoints and chew on them until you can't stand the taste of them anymore -- and THEN maybe you'll have something new and interesting to offer.

You have no idea what you're talking about in regard to me.

LOL Well that is ONE HUGE ASSUMPTION you make here.

I have said it before and it still STANDS. I KNOW 'you' better than 'you' know 'your own self'.

Oh, and by the way, this does NOT mean absolutely ANY thing the way when 'you', human beings, say and use that term.

You do not know me.

If you WANT to put Me up to this challenge, and are prepared to be Truly OPEN and Honest in your responses to ME, then I am more than willing to proceed.

It is very arrogant and stupid for you to act like you know what I am (or am not) and what I think.

'you' are a DIRECT RESULT of that upbringing, and is the very reason WHY you have a HATRED of any one who propose they know of a way to SEEING and UNDERSTANDING thee actual Truth of things.

You are talking about the projections of your noisy mind.

Yet, if I was to ever question or challenge 'you' on what does the word 'mind' mean or what does the word 'your' actually refer to, even from just your own perspective, 'you' would NOT be able to answer me OPENLY and Honestly. Let alone be able to express what those things actually ARE from a Truly objective sense and perspective. Unless, of course, you like to like to 'try' and prove me WRONG?

It is one thing to claim that 'I' do not know what 'you' are (and are not) but it is another thing to stay around and back up and support YOUR claim.

If, as you say, that what I write is of "no interest or value" to you, then prove it.

[surreptitious57]

if I was to ever question or challenge you on what does the word mind mean or what does the word your actually refer to even from
just your own perspective you would NOT be able to answer me OPENLY and Honestly

I have answered this question before even though this time it was not directed at me
So I say mind is the function of the brain and specifically with regard to how it thinks

[Age]

if I was to ever question or challenge you on what does the word mind mean or what does the word your actually refer to even from
just your own perspective you would NOT be able to answer me OPENLY and Honestly

I have answered this question before even though this time it was not directed at me
So I say mind is the function of the brain and specifically with regard to how it thinks

Okay, but what does "the function of the brain" actually mean? And, how how EXACTLY in what way does "this function" relate to how "the brain thinks"?

Also, my proposed question was also the question, 'What does the word 'your' actually refer to, in relation to 'your' 'mind'?

Is seems like a rather illogical and nonsensical to use the phrase or term; 'Your mind' if the word 'mind' is the function of the brain and specifically with regard to how the brain thinks.

There are not any human beings that I know of that have nor own the function of the brain, specifically in regards to how the brain thinks.

Now, How exactly does the brain think, to you.

To me, it a just a very simple and very easy process, which by the way has just about absolutely nothing at all to do with the Mind, and how It KNOWS.

But 'you' and 'I' do SEE things on just about completely opposing views and perspectives in regards to these matters.

[surreptitious57]

Okay but what does the function of the brain actually mean ? And how how EXACTLY in what way does this function relate to how the brain thinks ?

What does the word your actually refer to in relation to your mind ?

But you and I do SEE things on just about completely opposing views and perspectives in regards to these matters

The function of the brain pertains to how it operates electrochemically with regard to the firing of neurons and the processing of thoughts

The my in my mind refers to the physical brain and / or its function which is mine and mine only because everything in my body is mine

Human beings see things differently because no two think exactly the same all of the time which is a consequence of free will

[Age]

Okay but what does the function of the brain actually mean ? And how how EXACTLY in what way does this function relate to how the brain thinks ?

What does the word your actually refer to in relation to your mind ?

But you and I do SEE things on just about completely opposing views and perspectives in regards to these matters

The function of the brain pertains to how it operates electrochemically with regard to the firing of neurons and the processing of thoughts

The my in my mind refers to the physical brain and / or its function which is mine and mine only because everything in my body is mine

Human beings see things differently because no two think exactly the same all of the time which is a consequence of free will

Once again, we have two, just about, completely opposing views regarding things here.

[Lacewing]

Age, you are still writing in a way that is of no interest or value to me.

Yet here you are reading, and reply.

You have claimed that you're here to learn to communicate better -- so I'm showing courtesy by telling you why I have no interest in your volumes of nonsense, and that's why I will not be reading or responding in any detail right now.

I have said it before and it still STANDS. I KNOW 'you' better than 'you' know 'your own self'.

Anything you say only stands for you, in your noise -- which you seem to have an abundant and endless supply of. The products of your delusions are meaningless for anyone other than you.

For you to think that your distorted and noisy communication and claims would be of any significant use to anyone else, shows the severity and depth of your delusion and blindness. You don't have a clue, even about that!

If, as you say, that what I write is of "no interest or value" to you, then prove it.

I'm telling you why. Your projections are nonsense and your communication is distorted by all of your noise, so interacting with you in any significant way is not worth it. But (there is value in pointing out) you do serve as an example of such noisy potential existing in, and being used/distorted by, a human/being, which demonstrates for other humans/beings what to beware of and avoid in themselves. MANY have sight beyond yours -- there is nothing to be proven. You will have the capability of such recognition/awareness when you get tired of your noise -- and that will be apparent. Then we can have conversations without your noise disrupting the potential.

[Age]

Age, you are still writing in a way that is of no interest or value to me.

Yet here you are reading, and reply.

You have claimed that you're here to learn to communicate better -- so I'm showing courtesy by telling you why I have no interest in your volumes of nonsense, and that's why I will not be reading or responding in any detail right now.

Okay, that is fair enough, and thank you for this. But just to let you know I am already well aware that adult human beings do NOT like being told the Truth about themselves. They inevitably will turn off from this and as you say not read (nor listen to) what is just being truthfully expressed to them.

But, just so you are also aware, I am NOT going to stray away from thee Truth nor soften/sweeten/color thee Truth just so you then start reading/listening. If you can NOT handle and accept thee Truth, then so be it. But I am NOT going to resort to the deception and lies, which 'you', human beings, use just so that I communicate with 'yourselves', like 'you' do with one "another".

I have said it before and it still STANDS. I KNOW 'you' better than 'you' know 'your own self'.

Anything you say only stands for you, in your noise -- which you seem to have an abundant and endless supply of. The products of your delusions are meaningless for anyone other than you.

Why do you accuse that what I have is, so called, "noise", especially when you have absolutely NO interest at all in hearing what I actually do have?

See, I am controlling 'you' to NOT want to listen to what I have to say. I do this to SHOW and REVEAL how the brain will NOT listen to what it ASSUMES is going to be expressed. See, when the brain ASSUMES some thing, then it CLOSES the 'person' OFF to even just being able to listen and see things.

How could you logically and reasonably jump to the conclusion that what I have "is noise", when the ONLY thing you could possibly base this conclusion on is your very OWN ASSUMPTION, or what some might call your very OWN 'NOISE'?

How do you KNOW that my views are "delusions" and are "meaningless" if you have NEVER even heard them?

For all you know my views might actually be actually True and subsequently might even actually be EXTREMELY 'meaningful' for humankind, humanity, and life, itself. We will just have to WAIT and SEE. Or, have you ALREADY decided what thee Truth IS here?

For you to think that your distorted and noisy communication and claims would be of any significant use to anyone else, shows the severity and depth of your delusion and blindness. You don't have a clue, even about that!

The OBVIOUSNESS of these comments speak for themselves. You also still have NO clue as to what my actual views ARE, YET. You are just ASSUMING what they are.

By the way, Do you think that your distorted and noisy communication and claims would be of any significant use to anyone else? You do appear to like to continually express your views to "others" as those they have some importance to "them". In fact, what is your reason for being here expressing your views?

If, as you say, that what I write is of "no interest or value" to you, then prove it.

I'm telling you why.

Telling me 'why' is NOT proving that 'what I write' is REALLY of "no interest or value" to you. You have to actually do some thing, in order to PROVE what you say here. If you do NOT yet know what it is that you need to do to PROVE your claim, then just let me know and I will inform you.

Your projections are nonsense and your communication is distorted by all of your noise, so interacting with you in any significant way is not worth it.

So, WHY is it that 'you' do interact with 'me'?

But (there is value in pointing out) you do serve as an example of such noisy potential existing in, and being used/distorted by, a human/being, which demonstrates for other humans/beings what to beware of and avoid in themselves.

Great you made this comment. Now, what are the ACTUAL "examples" of, so called, "noise", which you do NOT like and BELIEVE are "distorted".

See, if you do NOT provide any actual examples, then this is because I have NOT actually given you ANY to use, other then ONLY the ones that you ASSUME I saying. See, I have ONLY 'hinted' at what I have to say. I have NEVER given you ANY thing. The ONLY thing I have given you are words, which have triggered to MAKE ASSUMPTIONS and to JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS. Unless, of course, you actually PROVE me WRONG here now, which I actually HOPE you do, so then we have, at least, SOME thing to LOOK AT, and discuss.

MANY have sight beyond yours -- there is nothing to be proven.

Even some makes a proposition or claim, ESPECIALLY on a 'philosophy forum', then I will suggest then there is, literally, SOME THING to be PROVEN. Like, for example, if so called "MANY" have "sight beyond mine", then PROVE it. Firstly, provide an example of where you think or believe this has occurred, and then EXPLAIN WHY you think or believe this is PROOF of your claim here.

You will have the capability of such recognition/awareness when you get tired of your noise -- and that will be apparent.

WHAT "NOISE" are you talking about AND referring to here?

Just saying things like, " when you get tired of "your noise", then some thing will happen", is JUST SO OBVIOUS that it does NOT even need saying. But, what you need to do, especially in a 'philosophy forum' is tell the "other" what the "noise" is exactly which you think or believe they have. Otherwise, what you are saying is just a COMPLETELY EMPTY CLAIM.

OBVIOUSLY, if 'you', "lacewing", also get tired of your noise and get rid of it, then 'you' will also recognize and SEE things much CLEARER as well.

Then we can have conversations without your noise disrupting the potential.

And the EXACT SAME goes for 'you'. When we can have MUCH BETTER conversations without your noise disrupting the potential. IN FACT, if you had gotten rid of 'your noise' previously, then you would have already recognized and been aware of this FACT.

I have been suggesting, for quite a while now, when 'you', human beings, rid yourself completely of ALL of your ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, then you will start SEEING thee actual Truth, and almost immediately. And then, 'you' will ALL start coming together and uniting as One, which means you will ALL then start discussing and having conversations with one "another"/'yourselves' peacefully, and in harmony.

In other words, take out the ASSUMING and the BELIEVING, and then there is NO disruption to the potential of the 'human being' to be living in peace AND harmony together as One.

[seeds]

it is also important to note Catholic Doctrine - (I do not know Protestent - welcome education on) - per Catholic, all persons that never heard the Word (this includes babies) go to "Limbo" - limbo eventually leads to salvation by default.

Catacizm states that those that never heard the word are not damned to hell.

and so via logic, that means the very existance of Christ damns more folks to Hell than if he never showed himself on Earth to be Chrusified.

so Christ is litterally an agent of death and damnation for more folks than if he never showed himself in the first place.

just sayin.

Yes, I have often pointed out that strange irony myself.

Indeed, it is especially obvious in the situation where Christian missionaries venture into remote jungle regions to impart the gospel to isolated tribes of humans who, after receiving the “good news,” are now subject to the potential of eternal damnation and torture.

Whereas, just prior to receiving the “good news,” their ignorance of any special rituals they needed to perform to keep them out of Hell would have gotten them off the hook.

The obvious point is that if the missionaries would have simply kept the information about Jesus a secret, then those innocent humans would have been perfectly fine with respect to the afterlife.
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[seeds]

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I’m pretty sure I’m going to regret this, but what the heck.

Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.

I will do MORE than just "chime in". I will give the actual EVIDENCE and PROOF of HOW ALL of 'that' what "christians" AND "muslims" have misinterpreted but what is ACTUALLY MEANT.

As you already KNOW I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing,...

Why in the world do you assume that I know (or even care) whether you believe or disbelieve anything?

...so I do NOT believe in hell.

If such is the case, then the OP question is not directed at you.

But I can explain WHY what you wrote is OBVIOUSLY 'utterly ridiculous' AND explain what IS 'actually True, Real, and Correct'.

I know it’s ridiculous. That’s the whole point of the OP, Sherlock.

But, if you continue to HOLD that OBVIOUSLY 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' view and idea of hell and those two religions, then you will NEVER understand what I have to say and can explain.

Again, the obvious fact that Hell (as it is generally portrayed in the mythology of certain religions) is indeed an utterly absurd and ridiculous concept, is precisely the underlying premise that the OP is based upon.

Your interpretation of God, heaven, and hell is just as absurd and is as just as 'utterly ridiculous' as the interpretation that "christians" and "muslims" have.

Age/ken, what do you think my interpretation of God, heaven, and hell actually is?
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[Age]

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I’m pretty sure I’m going to regret this, but what the heck.

Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.

I will do MORE than just "chime in". I will give the actual EVIDENCE and PROOF of HOW ALL of 'that' what "christians" AND "muslims" have misinterpreted but what is ACTUALLY MEANT.

As you already KNOW I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing,...

Why in the world do you assume that I know (or even care) whether you believe or disbelieve anything?

But I do NOT assume absolutely any thing like this at all. I was NOT even thinking, let alone talking, about absolutely any thing like this at all.

What I was saying, and meaning, IS; I am just stating that I do NOT 'believe' any thing at all here, EVEN THOUGH I can SEE that you are waiting for a hell-'believing' human being. I was just making it CLEAR to you, and the readers, that I am NOT a hell-'believing' ANY thing. That was all I was saying, and meaning, by that part of my response.

Also, you were waiting for people to 'demonstrate the courage of their convictions and "chime-in" on this subject.

Well I was just making it CLEAR to you, and the readers, besides I do NOT 'believe' 'hell', I will also do MORE than just "chime-in". That is; I will ACTUALLY demonstrate to you, with actual EVIDENCE and PROOF for my, so called, "convictions", or more better said, for 'my views'.

You are proposing that you are waiting for those who will demonstrate the courage of their "convictions", then I am the ONE that you are, supposedly, waiting for. But, I just wanted to make it CLEAR from the beginning that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing. So, are you actually up to taking me on and challenging me in relation to my views? Do you actually have the courage for this?

If yes, then GREAT. Let us proceed.

But be forewarned if you are going to continue to make ASSUMPTIONS and jump to conclusions, like you are showing ALREADY, then 'you' will NOT last much longer, let alone the distance.

...so I do NOT believe in hell.

If such is the case, then the OP question is not directed at you.

I think you may have FORGOTTEN your OWN opening post.

Would you classify 'me' as a, so called, "lurker" or not?

If no, then how do 'you' define the word 'lurker'?

By the way, to me, 'hell' is a PROVABLE FACT, and NOT just some thing, which is believed to be true.

Therefore, what can be CLEARLY SEEN is my views are FAR STRONGER than any from any so called "hell-believing christian or muslim".

See, unlike them or you, I can actually BACK UP and SUPPORT my views. So, if you SERIOUSLY want to PLAY, then come on, and PLAY. Do not back down and out on me ALREADY.

But I can explain WHY what you wrote is OBVIOUSLY 'utterly ridiculous' AND explain what IS 'actually True, Real, and Correct'.

I know it’s ridiculous. That’s the whole point of the OP, Sherlock.

And absolutely LOL I can CLEARLY SEE that you say you KNOW it is ridiculous. Do not forget you are meant to be "supposedly" waiting for hard core 'believers'. Yet, here I am making the claim that I can actual PROVE REAL what you claim is actually RIDICULOUS. So, let us SEE who can actually PROVE their claim CORRECT, FIRST.

I have ALREADY agreed with you that YOUR VERSION of 'hell' IS RIDICULOUS. But this is due to the FACT that YOUR VERSION is RIDICULOUS in and of itself. YOUR RIDICULOUS VERSION is also OBVIOUSLY NOT the True VERSION of 'hell', which is being TOLD through various religions BUT, which is being misinterpreted, misconstrued, and misunderstood by 'you', human beings.

Oh, and by the way, You may THINK you know that YOUR VERSION of 'hell' is RIDICULOUS, which it OBVIOUSLY IS. But, do you actually KNOW what the True, Real, and Correct VERSION of 'hell' ACTUALLY IS, that is; thee ONE that is NOT ridiculous at all?

If no, then you have MISSED my WHOLE POINT, "sherlock".

Obviously, the whole point of YOUR opening post is to find "those", which you were intending on 'trying to' ridicule, humiliated, and shame. So, now you have your chance. I am the one you have been waiting for. I say 'hell' IS True and Real. So, bring it on. 'Try' and prove to EVERY one just how ridiculous that view of mine Truly IS.

But, if you continue to HOLD that OBVIOUSLY 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' view and idea of hell and those two religions, then you will NEVER understand what I have to say and can explain.

Again, the obvious fact that Hell (as it is generally portrayed in the mythology of certain religions) is indeed an utterly absurd and ridiculous concept, is precisely the underlying premise that the OP is based upon.

OF COURSE the utterly absurd and ridiculous concept of 'hell', and IN FACT of ANY 'thing', is 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' in and of ITSELF.

BUT, 'that' version, which YOU are PORTRAYING is NOT thee True version of 'hell'. When will THIS FACT work its way into some sort of UNDERSTANDING within that brain?

This is YOUR, so called, "logic" so far: I will start a thread about an 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' version of some 'thing', and make the underlying premise of the opening post, of that thread, that; 'the utterly absurd and ridiculous concept' IS 'an utterly absurd and ridiculous concept'.

If we want to LOOK INTO what is ACTUALLY 'utterly absurd and ridiculous', then I think it will be when human beings do EXACTLY what you are doing here now.

Your interpretation of God, heaven, and hell is just as absurd and is as just as 'utterly ridiculous' as the interpretation that "christians" and "muslims" have.

Age/ken, what do you think my interpretation of God, heaven, and hell actually is?
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Is that they are ALL 'utterly absurd and ridiculous', correct?

As for your VERY OWN SPECIFIC interpretations, then they are YET TO BE FULLY SEEN. But they might be, and correct me at any time if they are WRONG;
An individual has an eternal life of bliss in heaven. Correct or incorrect?
An individual spends an eternity of torture in hell. Correct or incorrect?

If these are correct, then let us move on. However, if they are incorrect, then just correct them, and then let us move on. See, what you want to eventually get to, and which you believe is the final truth, is just about EXACTLY RIGHT. But you will NEVER be able to get there and have it FULLY understood, if you stray from NOT staying on the One and ONLY actual Truth.

For example, you say; that "christians" and "muslims" MUST ACCEPT YOUR OWN VERSION of 'heaven' and 'hell' as being possible if Heaven and Hell are real destinations of the human soul. What is actually 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' is that you actually BELIEVE that this is true. Even by your OWN acknowledgement YOUR OWN VERSION is 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' but you also HOLD the notion that "christians" and "muslims" MUST ACCEPT this version if heaven and hell are real destinations of the human soul.

See, thee Truth IS, heaven and hell are REAL, so called, "destinations" of the human 'soul'. BUT, what is needed FIRST is 'knowledge' of what 'heaven', 'hell', and 'human soul' REALLY ARE, in order to be able to FULLY understand ALL-OF-THIS.