Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

[bahman]

So you agree with me?

No, because "free will" is only an idea - not real.

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

If you are the observer of the idea and not idea then it follows that you are separate from the idea.

This only follows if you believe reality to be objective/relativistic (which it is not).
Direct experience reveals that the observer and the observed are one in the observing.

No. That follows from what you said before.

So your cup of tea does come to you after you approach it and pull it toward yourself?

Sure, this how we interpret it objectively ... but in reality, nothing is moving (because there are no separate things)

Of course, something is moving. Even if that is an idea.

Memory is located inside mind.

Have you ever seen/experienced this "container" labelled "mind"?

Yes, I did.

I have not - and I am pretty sure nobody has... look at how thoughts arise... if you are completely honest you will find that they simply arise - they come from "nowhere" - they are not emerging from another thing that could be known - they do not crawl out and emerge from a thing called "mind"

It cannot comes from nowhere. Nowhere is indifferent, reality is not.

Why the bold part is correct?
If it (reality) were a thing there would have to be multiple realities

It is correct because you cannot have just one thing - there are either multiple things or no things at all. You need at least two things - the observer and the observed - to state "this over there is a thing".

Yes, you need mind, the observer, and matter. There is however at least another observant.

If there is only one thing it is impossible to do this - but then again... we still do it... how??? By believing in the idea that there are multiple things/objects and that we are the separate subject. We forget that this is an interpretation only, not reality, not truth - in reality there are no things, not even one.

Of course, there are things in reality.

THe point is to deduce which imagination fits with the reality that we observe.

Sure, thats what we (thoughts) do - it allows us to navigate and make sense of this world in a very special way, but it also provides the disadvantage of making us blind to the underlying, undivided reality (in this case: with "us", I refer to thought).

Yes. But we can use apparatus or argument which tells us what underlying reality is.

[AlexW]

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

"Options" are only mental constructs - reality has no "options", it also makes no "decisions".

Of course, something is moving. Even if that is an idea.

Is an idea really moving? In what? In space?
As I see it, movement requires 3 things: physical objects, time and space - if only one of these (theoretical) parts goes missing there can be no movement.
Look at a dream: There seems to be movement, people and things seem to be moving freely, but where is the "space" in which they move? It doesn't actually exist, it is not real - it is just an idea. Now... is there really movement? Do ideas - aka dream characters - move? Sure, it seems so, but in reality, they do not move - why? Because - in reality - they do not even exist (as independent, separate entities).

Yes, I did.

OK... so you have experienced this "mind"... I am curious, please tell me how?
Which sense organ can detect "mind"? Can you see, hear, smell, taste it? Can you touch it? Or can you only think about it?

It cannot comes from nowhere. Nowhere is indifferent, reality is not.

Well then... have a good look... where exactly do these thoughts come from that arise now?

But we can use apparatus or argument which tells us what underlying reality is.

An apparatus, just like your senses, will only provide raw data - it's always conceptual thought that makes sense of the data - you believe that this data is proof for a relativistic/objective universe - fine... I don't.

[Belinda]

Bahman wrote:

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

There actually are people who cannot make up their minds. Some of them are ill and have to have their lives supported by others.

[bahman]

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

"Options" are only mental constructs - reality has no "options", it also makes no "decisions".

No. According to the quantum theory, the particle does not have certain path. Options are real. Decisions are required.

Of course, something is moving. Even if that is an idea.

Is an idea really moving? In what? In space?

Ideas move in mental space. They have forms otherwise we could not recognize them from each other.

As I see it, movement requires 3 things: physical objects, time and space - if only one of these (theoretical) parts goes missing there can be no movement.

These three exist mentally.

Look at a dream: There seems to be movement, people and things seem to be moving freely, but where is the "space" in which they move? It doesn't actually exist, it is not real - it is just an idea. Now... is there really movement? Do ideas - aka dream characters - move? Sure, it seems so, but in reality, they do not move - why? Because - in reality - they do not even exist (as independent, separate entities).

Yes. The idea is mental and internal to the person.

quote=bahman post_id=453291 time=1588273994 user_id=12593]
Yes, I did.

OK... so you have experienced this "mind"... I am curious, please tell me how?
[/quote]
I am afraid that I cannot verbalize it.

Which sense organ can detect "mind"? Can you see, hear, smell, taste it? Can you touch it? Or can you only think about it?

Mind itself experience itself.

It cannot comes from nowhere. Nowhere is indifferent, reality is not.

Well then... have a good look... where exactly do these thoughts come from that arise now?

The thought arises from the mind.

But we can use apparatus or argument which tells us what underlying reality is.

An apparatus, just like your senses, will only provide raw data - it's always conceptual thought that makes sense of the data - you believe that this data is proof for a relativistic/objective universe - fine... I don't.

It is alright.

[bahman]

Bahman wrote:

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

There actually are people who cannot make up their minds. Some of them are ill and have to have their lives supported by others.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[Belinda]

Bahman wrote:

Free will is necessity part of any reality. What if a system fall in a situation that has to decide within two equally liked options.

There actually are people who cannot make up their minds. Some of them are ill and have to have their lives supported by others.

Thanks for the confirmation.

But that is not philosophical Free Will, which is as much cause if itself as God is cause of Himself.
People who have the sort of 'free will' you are talking about , people who make up their minds after due reflection and collection of relevant information and have the courage of those rational beliefs, are free people . They aren't people with philosophical Free Will.

It is true "anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated".

Nature itself cannot be annihilated even although each and every natural thing can be annihilated.

[bahman]

Bahman wrote:



There actually are people who cannot make up their minds. Some of them are ill and have to have their lives supported by others.

Thanks for the confirmation.

But that is not philosophical Free Will, which is as much cause if itself as God is cause of Himself.

Free will is difference from something being cause of itself.

People who have the sort of 'free will' you are talking about , people who make up their minds after due reflection and collection of relevant information and have the courage of those rational beliefs, are free people . They aren't people with philosophical Free Will.

There is only one sort of free will.

It is true "anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated".

Yes. The main argument in this thread, what is stated in OP, is about this.

Nature itself cannot be annihilated even although each and every natural thing can be annihilated.

What do you mean with nature?

[AlexW]

No. According to the quantum theory, the particle does not have certain path. Options are real. Decisions are required.

As you said ... its a theory

Ideas move in mental space. They have forms otherwise we could not recognize them from each other.

Mental space ... its extension is zero.
Also, yes, sure there are forms, but this doesn't mean that these forms are independently existing entities - its rather like waves in the ocean, they seem to exist independently, but in fact they are just ocean.

These three exist mentally.

So do unicorns.

Mind itself experience itself.

This is like saying the eye sees itself - its not possible in an objective universe (but it seems possible in a world "made by"/conceptualised via thought)

It is alright.

Agree

[Belinda]

Thanks for the confirmation.

But that is not philosophical Free Will, which is as much cause if itself as God is cause of Himself.

Free will is difference from something being cause of itself.

People who have the sort of 'free will' you are talking about , people who make up their minds after due reflection and collection of relevant information and have the courage of those rational beliefs, are free people . They aren't people with philosophical Free Will.

There is only one sort of free will.

It is true "anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated".

Yes. The main argument in this thread, what is stated in OP, is about this.

Nature itself cannot be annihilated even although each and every natural thing can be annihilated.

What do you mean with nature?

By 'free will' people mean different things. if you follow certain other threads you might possibly see that is a fact.

What I mean bynature is everything that exists and the ways by which everything that exists affects everything else that exists.

Do you yourself ever use the word 'nature', and if so what do you mean by it?

[bahman]

No. According to the quantum theory, the particle does not have certain path. Options are real. Decisions are required.

As you said ... its a theory

Do you think that my belief on the fact I made decisions, which required options, are theory too. So it is not valid. Have you ever made any decision in your life?

Ideas move in mental space. They have forms otherwise we could not recognize them from each other.

Mental space ... its extension is zero.

So real space too.

Also, yes, sure there are forms, but this doesn't mean that these forms are independently existing entities - its rather like waves in the ocean, they seem to exist independently, but in fact they are just ocean.

Yes, they are in the ocean of your mind.

These three exist mentally.

So do unicorns.

The universe is infinite so do the unicorn.

Mind itself experience itself.

This is like saying the eye sees itself - its not possible in an objective universe (but it seems possible in a world "made by"/conceptualised via thought)

It is direct experience. I cannot help it if you have had it before.

It is alright.

Agree

[bahman]

But that is not philosophical Free Will, which is as much cause if itself as God is cause of Himself.

Free will is difference from something being cause of itself.

People who have the sort of 'free will' you are talking about , people who make up their minds after due reflection and collection of relevant information and have the courage of those rational beliefs, are free people . They aren't people with philosophical Free Will.

There is only one sort of free will.

It is true "anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated".

Yes. The main argument in this thread, what is stated in OP, is about this.

Nature itself cannot be annihilated even although each and every natural thing can be annihilated.

What do you mean with nature?

By 'free will' people mean different things. if you follow certain other threads you might possibly see that is a fact.

By free will I mean the ability to decide in a situation when options are equally liked.

What I mean bynature is everything that exists and the ways by which everything that exists affects everything else that exists.

Aahan. But for that you need a proof.

Do you yourself ever use the word 'nature', and if so what do you mean by it?

I think that reality is made of minds and matter.

[AlexW]

Do you think that my belief on the fact I made decisions, which required options, are theory too. So it is not valid. Have you ever made any decision in your life?

Yes it's theory (an interpretation) and no, I (the individual person) have never made a decision.

Why?

Because the person who you believe yourself to be is not more than a collection of thoughts/memories - thus the question is: can a collection of thoughts make decisions?
As I see it (and experience it): No!
Thoughts simply come and go, they arise and vanish, but they do not do or decide anything - they don't control anything, even you (the collection of thoughts) might think they do... but believing/wishful thinking doesn't make it so

Imagine you would really have the power to decide... where would it start and where stop? Where is the line where processes run on automatic and where the "you" suddenly takes over? There are millions, if not billions of options and thus decisions to be made every single day - how to move your muscles, how fast and deep to breathe, to pay special attention to a sound or a visual impression .... if you would have to recognise and decide on even 10% of these "options" you would not even get out of bed.
So we (thought) select a very limited few apparent options, think about them deeply and "make one decision" - how often? every few minutes? How amazing! And you really believe you have "free will"? I tell you, its not more than a self glorifying illusion.

[Belinda]

Bahman wrote:

I think that reality is made of minds and matter.

I agree minds and matter exist. For instance you and I can think of what we say and do and we can also do what we say and do.

Do you think reality is the same as nature?

[Belinda]

Bahman wrote:

I think that reality is made of minds and matter.

I agree minds and matter exist. For instance you and I can think of what we say and do, and we can also do what we say and do.

Do you think reality is the same as nature?

[bahman]

Do you think that my belief on the fact I made decisions, which required options, are theory too. So it is not valid. Have you ever made any decision in your life?

Yes it's theory (an interpretation) and no, I (the individual person) have never made a decision.

Why?

Because the person who you believe yourself to be is not more than a collection of thoughts/memories - thus the question is: can a collection of thoughts make decisions?
As I see it (and experience it): No!
Thoughts simply come and go, they arise and vanish, but they do not do or decide anything - they don't control anything, even you (the collection of thoughts) might think they do... but believing/wishful thinking doesn't make it so

Imagine you would really have the power to decide... where would it start and where stop? Where is the line where processes run on automatic and where the "you" suddenly takes over? There are millions, if not billions of options and thus decisions to be made every single day - how to move your muscles, how fast and deep to breathe, to pay special attention to a sound or a visual impression .... if you would have to recognise and decide on even 10% of these "options" you would not even get out of bed.
So we (thought) select a very limited few apparent options, think about them deeply and "make one decision" - how often? every few minutes? How amazing! And you really believe you have "free will"? I tell you, its not more than a self glorifying illusion.

I already asked you whether you are a chain of ideas and your answer was no. Other decisions that you think you don't make them are due to other minds. Thought are not just come and go. They become more coherent as time passes. This means that they are processed. This requires an agent who is free. Even if you made one decision in your life then it means that you are a mind.