The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:19 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:24 pm The grounding of your premises is in a consensus, thus a fallacy.
Newton's law of universal gravitation is based on empirical verification and consensus.

The above consensus-based premise assert and imply the big rock [10 kg] you throw above your head will certainly fall back to Earth.
You think this is a fallacy, thus disregard it and do not accept the rock you throw above will not fall down onto your head?
What we deem as true is determined by the repeatability of the event within a given context. The expansion of the context in turn changes the measure in which a phenomenon is repeated. It is this repeatability through the expansion and contraction of context which gives a necessary prerequisite to context as determining truth and false values.

All events are falsifiable, or justifiable, given the appropriate context. Thus empirical testing is not necessarily the sole means of justifying a phenomenon as the context from which truth value is derived is subject to a non empirical means of determining the context itself.

It is the absence of empiricality, in determining context, that necessitates all empirical truths being grounded within a prerequisite abstraction that stands above the empirical senses itself. For example the testing of a rat's diet within the contexts of A and B events may as well be empirical in the test itself but what determines which context is applied is based upon an abstraction.

Under these terms all empirical testing is subject to a descriptive process of reasoning where phenomenon are defined in accord to abstractions. Part of this abstraction is the consensus of which abstraction to apply, with this not being subject to any empirical laws but rather group agreement. In simpler terms the test applied to measure a phenomenon are not limited to empirical knowledge but rather a group subjective agreement as to which empirical test the phenomena is subject to.

Thus in the quest of justifiability, all scientific and philosophical truths are derived from a group agreement in test ability, as any test can be applied to any phenomenon thus leading to any set of results within a given scientific or philosophical experiment.

What is derived through the process of experimentation is the application of context, with the summation of "everything" as "reality itself" being unable to be tested considering the summation of experience must be aligned within a given outside context thus causing a disjunction between "everything" and "test for everything". Testability, as context application, suffers an infinite regress as what can be tested will always have a test beyond it necessary to justify the former context.

The summation of reality alone, as "everything", will always have the test/context itself as a subset thus leading to a circularity: The test is needed to justify reality, but the test must be "real" in order for the test to be valid, this reality to the test to unjustifiable without going into a circularity.
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:13 pm It is deterministic that it will come down, the angle at which it is thrown makes falling on the head probabilistic. The rock being thrown is subject to angulature of the throw and that is probabilistic. What it also probabilistic is other variables which effect it, such as the wind blowing, whether or not I move, etc. The rock falling is not probabilistic, it hitting my head is.
No. After you throw the rock up, we can measure all the relevant variables (angle, velocity, wind speed, speed of your movement, position of your head etc.) we can predict if the rock is going to collide with your head before it actually does to a high degree of confidence. If variables keep changing - we can keep re-calculating.

This sort of stuff is regularly used in asteroid impact avoidance

If you are looking for a gap to play semantic sophistry you could always argue that there is a non-0% margin of error. That's what pyrrhonists do.

The scientific baseline is 50% error rate. Can you beat a coin? That's what determinism means.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:47 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:13 pm It is deterministic that it will come down, the angle at which it is thrown makes falling on the head probabilistic. The rock being thrown is subject to angulature of the throw and that is probabilistic. What it also probabilistic is other variables which effect it, such as the wind blowing, whether or not I move, etc. The rock falling is not probabilistic, it hitting my head is.
No. After you throw the rock up, we can measure all the relevant variables (angle, velocity, wind speed, speed of your movement, position of your head etc.) we can predict if the rock is going to collide with your head before it actually does to a high degree of confidence. read: we can predict better than a coin can. That is what determinism means.

This sort of stuff is regularly used in asteroid impact avoidance

And there are a multitude of asteroids not accounted for.

If you are looking for a gap to play semantic sophistry you could always argue that there is a non-0% margin of error. That's what pyrrhonists do.
False there is no gap, the ability to predict a phenomena is grounded in the variables observed. There is no set formalization for which to determine which variables are observed and which are not observed. Variable observance is subject to an infinite regress where for every variable observed, there are variables not observed which lie beyond it.


Analysis is tautology creation and tautology creation is random:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28798
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 pm False there is no gap, the ability to predict a phenomena is grounded in the variables observed. There is no set formalization for which to determine which variables are observed and which are not observed. Variable observance is subject to an infinite regress where for every variable observed, there are variables not observed which lie beyond it.


Analysis is tautology creation and tautology creation is random:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28798
You don't understand what determinism means.

It means non-uniform distribution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_d ... ontinuous)

Either the rock will hit your head or it won't. There's 50/50 chance that it happens. That's a uniform distribution.

Any other distribution is deterministic.

What you are doing is you are unable to back-propagate the error margins you are dealing with, so you are treating all errors as equivalently wrong.

https://xkcd.com/2110/
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 pm False there is no gap, the ability to predict a phenomena is grounded in the variables observed. There is no set formalization for which to determine which variables are observed and which are not observed. Variable observance is subject to an infinite regress where for every variable observed, there are variables not observed which lie beyond it.


Analysis is tautology creation and tautology creation is random:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28798
You don't understand what determinism means.

It means non-uniform distribution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_d ... ontinuous)

Either the rock will hit your head or it won't. There's 50/50 chance that it happens. That's a uniform distribution.

Any other distribution is deterministic.
If 50% of the time the rock hits the head, then by default it can not be determined whether or not the rock will hit the head. What is observed is probability and probability cannot predict the exactness of a future event as actually occuring or how it will occur. It subjects the future to an element of chance.

What determinism is:

"the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions".
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:07 pm If 50% of the time the rock hits the head, then by default it can not be determined whether or not the rock will hit the head. What is observed is probability and probability cannot predict the exactness of a future event.
Yeah, but if 99% of the time the rock hits your head - that's deterministic.
Never mind that, Statistically speaking 50.0000000000...1% is deterministic.

Anything below 100% accuracy (or above 0% error - same thing) is "non-determinism" for you. You are still arguing pyrrhonism.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:09 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:07 pm If 50% of the time the rock hits the head, then by default it can not be determined whether or not the rock will hit the head. What is observed is probability and probability cannot predict the exactness of a future event.
Yeah, but if 99% of the time the rock hits your head - that's deterministic.
Never mind that, Statistically speaking 50.0000000000...1% is deterministic.

Anything below 100% accuracy is "non-determinism" for you. You are still arguing pyrrhonism.
Anything below 100% is not predictable by nature as you are observing an element of chance. Probabalism is a description of a dualism between an actual and potential future. We cannot predict everything.

Putting a label of "pyrrhonism" does not negate the argument. Judgements cannot be made.
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:15 pm Anything below 100% is not predictable by nature as you are observing an element of chance. Probabalism is a description of a dualism between an actual and potential future. We cannot predict everything.
Yes. And there are only two possible futures in which we are interested in.

A. Your head gets smashed.
B. Your head doesn't get smashed.

We don't have to predict "everything" - we just have to predict one of two things.

Even a coin can do it with some margin of error.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:15 pm Putting a label of "pyrrhonism" does not negate the argument. Judgements cannot be made.
It does. You are predicting (judging!) that everything is unpredictable. And that's a testable/falsifiable claim.

I bet you haven't heard of von Neumann's unfair coin trick. https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... fair-coin/
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:20 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:15 pm Anything below 100% is not predictable by nature as you are observing an element of chance. Probabalism is a description of a dualism between an actual and potential future. We cannot predict everything.
Yes. And there are only two possible futures in which we are interested in.

A. Your head gets smashed.
B. Your head doesn't get smashed.

We don't have to predict "everything" - we just have to predict one of two things.

Even a coin can do it with some margin of error.

Yet if you flip a coin you cannot predict how it will land.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:15 pm Putting a label of "pyrrhonism" does not negate the argument. Judgements cannot be made.
It does. You are predicting that everything is unpredictable. And that's a testable/falsifiable claim.
False, I am stating knowledge has limits and these limits necessitate knowledge as descriptive. Things are both predictable and unpredictable.



I bet you haven't heard of von Neumann's unfair coin trick. https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... fair-coin/
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:31 pm Yet if you flip a coin you cannot predict how it will land.
I can.

I predict that it will land on heads 100% of the time.
I also predict that 50% of the time I will be wrong.

If my wrongness deviates from the 50% uniformity - that's determinism.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:31 pm False, I am stating knowledge has limits and these limits necessitate knowledge as descriptive. Things are both predictable and unpredictable.
Then how did I predict you are going to turn this into a semantic wordplay?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:31 pm Yet if you flip a coin you cannot predict how it will land.
I can.

I predict that it will land on heads 100% of the time.
I also predict that 50% of the time I will be wrong.

Semantics. Actually it will only land half the time, each flip cannot be predicted, barring the last flips. Thus, both predictable and unpredictable.

If my wrongness deviates from the 50% uniformity - that's determinism.

[


Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:31 pm False, I am stating knowledge has limits and these limits necessitate knowledge as descriptive. Things are both predictable and unpredictable.
Then how did I predict you are going to turn this into a semantic wordplay?

Projection on your part, seeing yourself in others. Probability is the description of a phenomenon, its actuality and potentiality. Each flip of the coin, during the beginning few flips, is unpredictable. It is only predictable during the latter flips. Thus predictable and unpredictable with no contradiction.
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:01 pm Semantics. Actually it will only land half the time, each flip cannot be predicted, barring the last flips. Thus, both predictable and unpredictable.
Then how did you predict that superposition?

It's Both predictable and unpredictable. [1, 0]. That's |0> (ket 0)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit#Sta ... esentation
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:01 pm Projection on your part, seeing yourself in others. Probability is the description of a phenomenon, its actuality and potentiality. Each flip of the coin, during the beginning few flips, is unpredictable. It is only predictable during the latter flips. Thus predictable and unpredictable with no contradiction.
The more I practice, the more I project correctly.

Lucky me.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:01 pm Semantics. Actually it will only land half the time, each flip cannot be predicted, barring the last flips. Thus, both predictable and unpredictable.
Then how did you predict that superposition?

Not a prediction, it is a description of a phenomena, superposition is in a constant "now" state.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:01 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:31 pm False, I am stating knowledge has limits and these limits necessitate knowledge as descriptive. Things are both predictable and unpredictable.
Then how did I predict you are going to turn this into a semantic wordplay?

Projection on your part, seeing yourself in others. Probability is the description of a phenomenon, its actuality and potentiality. Each flip of the coin, during the beginning few flips, is unpredictable. It is only predictable during the latter flips. Thus predictable and unpredictable with no contradiction.
The more I practice, the more I project correctly.

Lucky me.

I never said you where correct, I said you projected, it's in your nature to repeat this.
Skepdick
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:09 pm Not a prediction, it is a description of a phenomena, superposition is in a constant "now" state.
It isn't, because nobody knows what "now" means. Superposition collapses when you measure it.

That is when you compare expectation vs actuality. That is how you determine the "correctness" of your prediction.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Unavoidability of Belief within Reason

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:10 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:09 pm Not a prediction, it is a description of a phenomena, superposition is in a constant "now" state.
It isn't. Superposition collapses when you measure it.

Really... because a particle and a wave existing simultaneously is measurement from a different context. The superposition is subject to a context of measurement, such as a living and dead cat in the box being a measurement.

That is when you compare expectation vs actuality. That is how you determine the "correctness" of your prediction.

If a prediction is wrong it is not a prediction now is it? :)
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