A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

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Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
From Wiki
The subjects of Ecclesiastes are the pain and frustration engendered by observing and meditating on the distortions and inequities pervading the world, the uselessness of human deeds, and the limitations of wisdom and righteousness. The phrase "under the sun" appears thirty times in connection with these observations; all this coexists with a firm belief in God, whose power, justice and unpredictability are sovereign.[29] History and nature move in cycles, so that all events are predetermined and unchangeable, and life has no meaning or purpose: the wise man and the man who does not study wisdom will both die and be forgotten: man should be reverent ("Fear God"), but in this life it is best to simply enjoy God's gifts.[21]
Can animal man profit by understanding any of this by didactic reason and without his supernatural part being awakened? Just seems like a mass of contradictions
! Few people believe in the existence of a supernatural way of being. Reason, not supernatural Soul, is the driver of the Chariot. Man had better let reason rule.

I suspect, Nick, you disdain reason unless it's controlled by supernatural soul. Me, I don't hold that reason and soul are separate or mutually incompatible. Reason and soul are names for the same entirely natural potential that man is capable of.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:03 pm Nick wrote:
From Wiki
The subjects of Ecclesiastes are the pain and frustration engendered by observing and meditating on the distortions and inequities pervading the world, the uselessness of human deeds, and the limitations of wisdom and righteousness. The phrase "under the sun" appears thirty times in connection with these observations; all this coexists with a firm belief in God, whose power, justice and unpredictability are sovereign.[29] History and nature move in cycles, so that all events are predetermined and unchangeable, and life has no meaning or purpose: the wise man and the man who does not study wisdom will both die and be forgotten: man should be reverent ("Fear God"), but in this life it is best to simply enjoy God's gifts.[21]
Can animal man profit by understanding any of this by didactic reason and without his supernatural part being awakened? Just seems like a mass of contradictions
! Few people believe in the existence of a supernatural way of being. Reason, not supernatural Soul, is the driver of the Chariot. Man had better let reason rule.

I suspect, Nick, you disdain reason unless it's controlled by supernatural soul. Me, I don't hold that reason and soul are separate or mutually incompatible. Reason and soul are names for the same entirely natural potential that man is capable of.
The majority will agree with you which is why knowledge of the third force must be scorned in modern secular society functioning by duality. The third force enables those open to it the ability to reconcile duality from a higher conscious perspective and experience human meaning and its connection with its source rather than remaining lost in the battle over opinions. As has been shown, it it is an intolerable awareness which cannot be allowed for all those consumed with the battle over dualistic opinions as with climate change.
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick, this "source" you love and trust can be distorted out of all recognition by religions, cults, and ideologies. Much safer to be led by reason ; reason informed by humble or sceptical uncertainty and always powered by ordinary human kindness.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:15 am Nick, this "source" you love and trust can be distorted out of all recognition by religions, cults, and ideologies. Much safer to be led by reason ; reason informed by humble or sceptical uncertainty and always powered by ordinary human kindness.
Belinda, I have been the one here stressing the necessity of the reconciliation of science and religion: objective facts and objective values. I am willing to admit that religions has been distorted into its opposite. Simone explained why it happens.

Are you able to admit that objective science and the use of didactric reason becomes distorted because of the need for prestige and for pragmatic concerns?

What you believe as “ reason informed by humble or sceptical uncertainty and always powered by ordinary human kindness.” Is just wishful thinking. It is as naive as the belief in any religious cult.

Yet it is possible that humanity as a whole could awaken to the goal of objective facts being placed into an objective religious perspective. But who knows what this is? This would require consciously opening to Man’s objective purpose and the limitation of dualistic reason. We’ve learned that it is impossible. The world struggles against it. Yet if it were possible it would lead to a functioning super civilization

It isn’t that I am against reason. I am for the potential conscious reconciliation of objective reason opening to a conscious human perspective giving meaning to Man’s existence. We have seen how this is denied and hated in the real world and on philosophy sites. People have been killed over it

Science offers facts but what offers meaning? Good intentions and human kindness doesn’t work. It just leads to the corruption of reason to serve egoistic aims. So now I look for those free of all this PC nonsense who understands the problem of the human condition better than I do who I can learn from. They have been forced to remain hidden so finding them isn't so easy.
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
Science offers facts but what offers meaning? Good intentions and human kindness doesn’t work. It just leads to the corruption of reason to serve egoistic aims. So now I look for those free of all this PC nonsense who understands the problem of the human condition better than I do who I can learn from. They have been forced to remain hidden so finding them isn't so easy.
Please excuse my not quoting your entire post which was clear and fair . I try to keep my replies as short as I can.

I don't believe God revealed truth. I do have faith there is cosmic order independently of man's existence. I trust men try to seek goodness and truth. I can think of this search as it's God seeking us not us seeking God; this turnaround is possible because there is an element of good in everybody, although obviously bad drug addiction and addiction to bad ideologies, and sometimes even bad mental health bury the good that is in a man.

In a word, it is the search that is all we know of cosmic order/goodness. Mystical 'knowledge' is undemocratic .

The search for meaning is our business in the world, and if there were a personal God He would require us to search for it and not expect it to be revealed by Him.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda, This isn't a trick question. I'm just showing how hard it is to deal with the search for human meaning without getting lost in the useless battle over opinions.

Suppose a person wanted to transcend the war over opinions in the need to experience human meaning, what is their essential first effort that isn't based on opinions?
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:45 pm Belinda, This isn't a trick question. I'm just showing how hard it is to deal with the search for human meaning without getting lost in the useless battle over opinions.

Suppose a person wanted to transcend the war over opinions in the need to experience human meaning, what is their essential first effort that isn't based on opinions?
Scepticism and methods to employ scepicism. The most productive method to employ scepticism, and incidentally the Christian requirement for humility, is to rid oneself of certainty.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:49 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:45 pm Belinda, This isn't a trick question. I'm just showing how hard it is to deal with the search for human meaning without getting lost in the useless battle over opinions.

Suppose a person wanted to transcend the war over opinions in the need to experience human meaning, what is their essential first effort that isn't based on opinions?
Scepticism and methods to employ scepicism. The most productive method to employ scepticism, and incidentally the Christian requirement for humility, is to rid oneself of certainty.
Seems like we're getting somewhere. Scepticism can refer to emotional scepticism or intellectual scepticism. Which do you mean?

Emotional scepticism is an attitude of denial. A person views reality with a negative opinion and is actually harmful. Intellectual scepticism is an impartial judgment based upon facts and free from the interpretations of emotional scepticism. A person looks upon a cult for example and without an emotional judgment sees that it is built upon defensive emotional lies. Intellectual scepticism is essential but has its limits.

Intellectual scepticism can prove we live in an absurd world. Yet there is enough in the world to lead us to indicate there must be logic behind absurdity.

Intellectual scepticism has served its purpose. It has raised essential human questions that are not answered through the war of opinions. What is the next step which doesn't allow us to drift into emotional scepticism but keeps the path open to the experience of meaning which transcends opinions essential to justify this apparently impossible situation of the relationship between logic and absurdity?
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick, with respect, do you conflate 'scepticism' and 'cynicism' ? What you write about "emotional scepticism" seems to me what I call cynicism.
Intellectual scepticism can prove we live in an absurd world. Yet there is enough in the world to lead us to indicate there must be logic behind absurdity.
Cosmic order is a faith stance and cannot be proved, no matter how much evidence you think you have for it.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:13 pm Nick, with respect, do you conflate 'scepticism' and 'cynicism' ? What you write about "emotional scepticism" seems to me what I call cynicism.
Intellectual scepticism can prove we live in an absurd world. Yet there is enough in the world to lead us to indicate there must be logic behind absurdity.
Cosmic order is a faith stance and cannot be proved, no matter how much evidence you think you have for it.
I began distingusihing between emotional and intellectual scepticism after pondering what Simone Weil meant when she wrote:
The poison of skepticism becomes, like alcoholism, tuberculosis, and some other diseases, much more virulent in a hitherto virgin soil.


She was intellectually sceptical so what did she mean? I guess you could call it cynicism but looking at in this way allows me to appreciate a side of scepticism which is often hidden and considered positive.

We are talking about transcending opinions and faith IN anything is an opinion as opposed to the faith OF Christ which is a conscious human attribute we have in potential. I am referring to Einstein's remark for example:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
Rather than an opinion he has created an open question. It cannot be proven by didactic reason yet it isn't a matter of blind faith but of observation: a genuine philosophical question inviting us to remember. It can only be pondered with a quality of mind which invites the experience of transcending defending opinions. What can cause a person to finally outgrow the battle over opinions and seek the inner vertical direction which leads to the experience of meaning their cause?

Dpm't get me wrong. I am just trying to find out if you re open to what Plotinus meant by intuition (noesis)
“Knowledge has three degrees – opinion, science, illumination. The means or instrument of the first is sense; of the second, dialectic; of the third, intuition.”
— Plotinus
The didactic at some point can make the transition into intuition through efforts of conscious pondering. It is frowned upon in the modern age and I just try to keep it alive for those who need it but are kept unaware of it through societal influences
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:37 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:13 pm Nick, with respect, do you conflate 'scepticism' and 'cynicism' ? What you write about "emotional scepticism" seems to me what I call cynicism.
Intellectual scepticism can prove we live in an absurd world. Yet there is enough in the world to lead us to indicate there must be logic behind absurdity.
Cosmic order is a faith stance and cannot be proved, no matter how much evidence you think you have for it.
I began distingusihing between emotional and intellectual scepticism after pondering what Simone Weil meant when she wrote:
The poison of skepticism becomes, like alcoholism, tuberculosis, and some other diseases, much more virulent in a hitherto virgin soil.


She was intellectually sceptical so what did she mean? I guess you could call it cynicism but looking at in this way allows me to appreciate a side of scepticism which is often hidden and considered positive.

We are talking about transcending opinions and faith IN anything is an opinion as opposed to the faith OF Christ which is a conscious human attribute we have in potential. I am referring to Einstein's remark for example:



Rather than an opinion he has created an open question. It cannot be proven by didactic reason yet it isn't a matter of blind faith but of observation: a genuine philosophical question inviting us to remember. It can only be pondered with a quality of mind which invites the experience of transcending defending opinions. What can cause a person to finally outgrow the battle over opinions and seek the inner vertical direction which leads to the experience of meaning their cause?

Dpm't get me wrong. I am just trying to find out if you re open to what Plotinus meant by intuition (noesis)
“Knowledge has three degrees – opinion, science, illumination. The means or instrument of the first is sense; of the second, dialectic; of the third, intuition.”
— Plotinus
The didactic at some point can make the transition into intuition through efforts of conscious pondering. It is frowned upon in the modern age and I just try to keep it alive for those who need it but are kept unaware of it through societal influences
I am more inclined towards your Plotinus quote than I am towards your Simone Weil quote. However thank you for addressing why you don't conflate scepticism and cynicism. Neither of the two is cynical.

Regarding your or Simone's phrase "the faith of Christ". God has no need for faith as He knows everything, so faith is an irrelevance as far as God the father is concerned. The incarnate God i.e. Christ needs faith ,and as God incarnate, Christ's faith is steady and immutable, except for his agonised outburst on the Cross.

As an unbeliever in anything supernatural like as with Einstein ,I'd interpret Einstein's as you quoted:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
as Einstein's belief and trust in nature's being an ordered affair, even deterministic. The modern scientist must indeed have faith in nature as a natural order even when no living creatures might survive to know the order.

I say "the modern scientist" however please refer to Einstein's "God does not play dice with the universe."regarding the Einstein/Podolski /Rosen paradox.

https://www.businessinsider.com/god-doe ... ?r=US&IR=T

Einstein did not believe in a supernatural God and when he refered to God it was not a personal God but a metaphor for cosmic order.

Simone Weil seems to me to trust not only the wisdom of the historical Jesus but also the supernatural power of the Christ of faith. I guess it is at this juncture you and I go our separate ways. I love the former but regard the latter as metaphor at best and superstition at worst.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

You have posted legitimate opinions as the existence of God but can Gpd and Man be expressed as a question inviting the philosophical search beyond opinions?

For example consider the preface to Jacob Needleman's book: Lost Christianity.
What is needed is a either a new understanding of God or a new understanding of Man: an understanding of God that does not insult the scientific
mind, while offering bread, not a stone, to the deepest hunger of the
heart; or an understanding of Man that squarely faces the criminal
weakness of our moral will while holding out to us the knowledge of how we can strive within ourselves to become the fully human being we are meant to be– both for ourselves and as instruments of a higher purpose.
We don't know what Man or 'God is or even if God by any definition exists. Yet we know how many God concepts insult the mind but at the same time others nourish the heart. How can we reconcile knowledge of the mind and the needs of the heart when we don't know what Man or God is? This is a question which invites something beyond what the didactic mind and the struggle between belief and denial is capable of

My question to you if if you accept we are confronted with questions that require a quality of intelligence beyond the didactic mind? If you do, how can we respond to it.
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:56 pm You have posted legitimate opinions as the existence of God but can Gpd and Man be expressed as a question inviting the philosophical search beyond opinions?

For example consider the preface to Jacob Needleman's book: Lost Christianity.
What is needed is a either a new understanding of God or a new understanding of Man: an understanding of God that does not insult the scientific
mind, while offering bread, not a stone, to the deepest hunger of the
heart; or an understanding of Man that squarely faces the criminal
weakness of our moral will while holding out to us the knowledge of how we can strive within ourselves to become the fully human being we are meant to be– both for ourselves and as instruments of a higher purpose.
We don't know what Man or 'God is or even if God by any definition exists. Yet we know how many God concepts insult the mind but at the same time others nourish the heart. How can we reconcile knowledge of the mind and the needs of the heart when we don't know what Man or God is? This is a question which invites something beyond what the didactic mind and the struggle between belief and denial is capable of

My question to you if if you accept we are confronted with questions that require a quality of intelligence beyond the didactic mind? If you do, how can we respond to it.
I agree with Needleman until the last clause in the quotation. I'm not sure about each human being being "meant to be" as that would depend upon whether or not nature can be said to 'mean' anything. I do think nature 'means' something in the sense of a Euclid theorem meaning something. I would not claim there is a higher purpose but some men purpose better than others.

By "didactic mind" I think you mean same as what I'd call cognition or learning especially empirical learning or making up narratives for the purpose of explaining and predicting. Can I refer you again to the Chariot? My view of the Chariot is it's powered by the horses of passion and these animals are bridled. They are bridled. The charioteer who firmly holds the reins is reason. Reason can't go anywhere without the power of the horses, and the horses will break their legs unless reason controls and steers them.

The horses of passion that power the chariot are not hostile but are domesticated animals that have bred into their genes the capacity for kindness. However they still need the guiding hand of reason.It's that particular gene of kindness that is the desired "quality of intelligence beyond the didactic mind".

This "gene " of innate kindness has been fostered by civilisation as without civilisation human life is too brutal and short for individuals to develop much intelligence.
Nick_A
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
The horses of passion that power the chariot are not hostile but are domesticated animals that have bred into their genes the capacity for kindness. However they still need the guiding hand of reason.It's that particular gene of kindness that is the desired "quality of intelligence beyond the didactic mind".

This "gene " of innate kindness has been fostered by civilisation as without civilisation human life is too brutal and short for individuals to develop much intelligence.
Now we have a question that cannot be answered by dualism sometimes considered didactic reason. The body says no and the mind says yes and we argue on that basis: the reality of what we are vs what ought to be. Once a person realizes that it leads nowhere but is the best that our dualistic reason allows for we have to take understanding beyond dualsim.

This is the old aim of socratic dialogue in which the student was confronted with a contradiction inviting a higher form of reason to justify.

The point I'm makeing is that in reality we don't "Know Thyself." We dialogue from a position as if we do. Have we taught these horsed anything or do our efforts block efforts of what has already been known or the reality of objective conscience? Is the purpose of philosophy to learn anything knew or to remember what has been forgotten? This is a question that requires going beyond the limits of the battle between yes and no. I will continue with the Needleman preface The book is about Christianity but the same essential question of the meaning of "Know Thyself" exists in all the great traditions.

http://tiferetjournal.com/lost-christianity/
................But, this is not an either/or. The premise –or, rather, the proposal—of this
book is that at the heart of the Christian religion there exists and
has always existed just such a vision of both God and Man. I call it
“lost Christianity” not because it is a matter of doctrines and concepts
that may have been lost or forgotten; nor even a matter of methods of
spiritual practice that may need to be recovered from ancient sources.
It is all that, to be sure, but what is lost in the whole of our modern
life, including our understanding of religion, is something even more fundamental, without
which religious ideas and practices lose their meaning and all too
easily become the instruments of ignorance, fear and hatred. What
is lost is the experience of oneself, just oneself—myself, the personal
being who is here, now, living, breathing, yearning for meaning, for
goodness; just this person here, now, squarely confronting one’s own
existential weaknesses and pretensions while yet aware, however
tentatively, of a higher current of life and identity calling to us from
within ourselves. This presence to oneself is the missing element in
the whole of the life of Man, the intermediate state of consciousness
between what we are meant to be and what we actually are.
It is, perhaps, the one bridge that can lead us from our inhuman past
toward the human future.........................
Thew question I am posing is we don't what it means to "Know thyself. All we have is conflicting opinions. Why do we have conflicting opinions on something so essential? What do we have to do for those with the need to know thyself, have the experience of oneself for the sake of experiencing human meaning and purpose

Perhaps Socrates was right when he said "I Know nothing" He admitted it and it got him killed as it must in a world dominated by the struggle between yes and no..
Belinda
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Re: A Stoic Response To The Climate Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A quoted:

What
is lost is the experience of oneself, just oneself—myself, the personal
being who is here, now, living, breathing, yearning for meaning, for
goodness; just this person here, now, squarely confronting one’s own
existential weaknesses and pretensions while yet aware, however
tentatively, of a higher current of life and identity calling to us from
within ourselves. This presence to oneself is the missing element in
the whole of the life of Man, the intermediate state of consciousness
between what we are meant to be and what we actually are.
It is, perhaps, the one bridge that can lead us from our inhuman past
toward the human future.........................


Yes that is true. The question , and the anxiety, remains "Shall I sail my own little boat , or shall I join a lot of other people on the big safe cruise?

Emotions can be trained after a fashion, but we don't want to be emotionally flat to break the horses' spirits so to speak. There has to be a tension between reactive emotions and reason.
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