ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:55 am Btw, as usual, I stated an absolute moral law is merely a GUIDE, not a law that must be enforced in any way.
A, "guide," to what? Why should anyone follow a guide if they don't know what it is leading to?

[VA, would mind saying what your first langauge is? It might help, sometimes, in understanding exactly what you are trying to say. This is no at all a criticism. I speak some other languages but not as well as you do English.]
Note -what is morality;
  • Morality = principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Thus the secular objective absolute moral laws is an ideal to act as a guide towards right and good human behavior by all individual humans. This must be known, understood as a necessity and adopted by all individual humans on a voluntarily basis.

Generally, for the improvement any human behavior, it would be more efficient to be set the standard as the ideal rather than mediocre standards. It is imperative within Morality, the standard must be based on the ideal without any compromise.
Whilst setting the ideal as the ultimate standard [Morality] provisions should be made to flex and cater to specific circumstances [Ethics].

In my proposed Framework of Morality and Ethics, the task is to ensure all individual humans works toward adopting the absolute moral laws as a guide. The question is how, and it can be done - there are many ways to it.

[I am from the East and my mother tongue is not English.
Agree my grammar is not good but I believe I reasonably can drive through the point philosophically. I admit some of my statements can be confusing at times, especially when I do not have time to review and make corrections re the longer posts as I often had to do.]
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Re: "Why is it wrong(?)"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 am As I say, have said, and no doubt will say, in multiple places: a man owns himself.

He is his own. He's not a commodity. To claim him as property, to use him as resource, is an immoral violation of him.
Henry you are intuitively on target - not curry favor - but you point is very rational and well justified.

"a man owns himself"
That is every individual 'man' [human] is entitled to the minimal basic human right not to be owned by another human and other basic rights.

Here is Kant's second Moral Categorical Imperative;
  • Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end. Every rational action must set before itself not only a principle, but also an end.
The above is reflected in what you stated;
  • He is his own. He's not a commodity. To claim him as property, to use him as resource, is an immoral violation of him.
You are on target on the above re slavery, albeit you may disagree with the other moral absolute laws proposed.
I'm trying to help you see you have a good rational reason for it.

Yeah, I already have that: owness. If you agree, great; if you disagree, let's tussle (and, no offense, I didn't ask for, and I don't need, your help).


Henry, you are much too intelligent to not have understood my point.

Yeah, I'm pretty friggin' bright. Your point was buried under a load of what I now understand was just good, old fashioned, condescension, cleverness, and coat tail ridin'. Make your points without usin' me as a test bed.
Yeah ..
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RCSaunders
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Re: "Why is it wrong(?)"

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 am As I say, have said, and no doubt will say, in multiple places: a man owns himself.
I have no objection to thinking of yourself as something you own. It's not a bad analogy, and true as far is goes. If you are your own property you are free to use and dispose of it in any way you choose without anyone else's interference. I totally agree.

So, for your own sake, does it matter how you use that property?

For me, that is the whole of the moral question. Since it is my life to live as I choose without the interference of anyone else, I need to know how to live it. I can't just do whatever I feel like or what I'm itching to do at the moment if I'm going to able to truly live my life to my own best advantage.

If, I own myself, why would I want to mistreat my own property? It's the one thing that has a value to me that makes all other values possible. If my own life doesn't matter to me, what good does it do to own it?
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RCSaunders
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:37 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:55 am Btw, as usual, I stated an absolute moral law is merely a GUIDE, not a law that must be enforced in any way.
A, "guide," to what? Why should anyone follow a guide if they don't know what it is leading to?

[VA, would mind saying what your first langauge is? It might help, sometimes, in understanding exactly what you are trying to say. This is no at all a criticism. I speak some other languages but not as well as you do English.]
Note -what is morality;
  • Morality = principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
First of all, VA, I want to say I think you are using English very well as a second language. Knowing that does help me understand what you are saying.

I also think your definition of morality is correct, but it does not answer the question I asked. Moral or ethical principles should distinguish between right, wrong, good, and bad behavior, but what that definition does not provide is the answer to the question, "what determines what is right, wrong, good, or bad?

When we discussed this earlier I tried to make the same point:
Good and bad, right and wrong, important and unimportant are value terms. All value terms are concepts of relationship. Any action, for example, is only right or wrong relative to some objective, (a purpose, end, or goal), that is to be achieved. An action is right if it achieves the objective, but it is wrong if it fails to achieve the objective. Nothing is just good or bad unless your specify what a thing is good or bad for and to whom. There are no intrinsic values.
And you partly agreed:
Agree, good and evil are value terms relative to a framework and system within reality.
In the case of good and evil in relation to the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics, they are terms relative to the Framework and System of Human Nature in regards to human actions and their impact on other humans.
Only individual conscious beings have objectives, purposes, ends, or goals, not "frameworks." You still haven't identified what moral values are for. I agree, if there are moral principles, they must be for the benefit of human beings, but only for the individuals who observe them. Your statement about one's actions, "impact on others," turns moral principles into something social, not individual.

Here is another way to ask the question. Why should anyone behave according to moral principles if that behavior is not for the individual's own benefit?
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henry quirk
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by henry quirk »

Henry you are intuitively on target - not curry favor - but you point is very rational and well justified.

👍🏻

#

If, I own myself, why would I want to mistreat my own property?

It's dumbassery, or nutjobbery, to misuse one's self, but part & parcel of owness is doin' as one chooses with one's self.

I think Junkie Joe is a dumbass or a nutjob. I won't associate with him. Sure as shit I'll defend myself against him. But, unless he asks for an assist to get the 🐒 off his back, I won't poke my nose into his business (and, if he has a lick of sense left to him, he won't poke his nose into mine).

So, for me, the whole of the moral question is answered thusly...

Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.
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RCSaunders
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:52 pm So, for me, the whole of the moral question is answered thusly...

Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.
Here's our difference. For me the whole of the moral question (relative to others) is, "mind my own business and keep my hands to myself."
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RCSaunders
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:21 am I suggest, instead of going all over with Hume, why not critique Hume's main proposals, i.e.

1. Causation
2. Bundle theory
3. On Miracles
4. On induction

If you can convince me Hume was wrong on the above, then I will accept Hume was a very bad philosopher.
I have no interest in convincing you of anything, VA. I'm always interested in good conversation, but have no desire or interest in changing what anyone else chooses to think or believe. I will address the four issues you suggested only because you seem interested. I will only be able to provide a brief critique here, of course, but I have addressed most of these issues at length elsewhere if you are interested.

I will begin with one point you did not list, Hume's terrible epistemology which led to all his other mistakes.

Epistemology

Hume's notion of what ideas (or concepts) actually consist of is that of a child or uncivilized savage.

For Hume, "ideas" are like fuzzy pictures or representations of what we directly experience. The idea "dog" or "table" is just an incomplete "picture" of a dog or table recalled from memory. This is the epistemology of a child or a brute, not that of philosopher.

In Hume's footnote to his final section, "Section XII—Of the Academical Or Sceptical Philosophy," he makes his view explicit: "Thus when the term Horse is pronounced, we immediately figure [picture] to ourselves the idea of a black or a white animal, of a particular size or figure: But as that term is also usually applied to animals of other colours, figures and sizes, these ideas, though not actually present to the imagination, are easily recalled; and our reasoning and conclusion proceed in the same way, as if they were actually present."

If you've ever heard someone say, "our ideas can never be as perfect as real things," or "our ideas of things are always incomplete," they are expressing Hume's notion of ideas, which is, at best, pre-Aristotelian. This particular Humean infection is so intrenched in academia and every intellectual field today, that the Aristotelian understanding of what concepts (ideas) actually are has almost been lost.

An idea or concept is not a "picture" or "representation" of anything. A concept is the identification of an existent (entity or idea) or a class of existents (entities or other ideas).

The meaning of a concept is the entity or entities it identifies, with all their qualities, attributes, and relationships, whether those qualities, attributes, and relationships (beyond those necessary for their identification) are known or not. The concept designated by the word "dog," for example, means every dog there is, ever was, ever will be, or can be imagined.

[Please see my article on this site, "Epistemology, Concepts", for a brief overview of a correct epistemology.]

Causation

If you want to destroy a legitimate concept, especially if it is not well understood, just describe and explain that concept in a plausible but incorrect way and proceed to demonstrate the concept, as described, is logically impossible. The concept in this case is causality, which Hume totally corrupted.

The right meaning of the concept cause is that the events of this world are not random and disconnected but that things happen for a reason which lies squarely in the nature of things and their relationships. Causality is a very broad concept and subsumes more than mere "physical" causality, which is the only aspect of it Hume addressed. The implied (and correct) assumption behind causality is that the world is objectively real, and that the principles that describe its nature can be discovered, and that description, to the extent it is complete and correct, explains why things behave as they do and have the relationships they have. All knowledge, from science to philosophy is dependent on this premise. If doubt is cast on that premise, doubt is cast on all knowledge.

By completely misidentifying the nature of cause, Hume not only destroys the basis of all science, but all abstract knowledge. He wrote: "All reasonings concerning matter of fact seem to be founded on the relation of Cause and Effect," which in his view is the same cause always produces the same effect. "From causes which appear similar we expect similar effects. This is the sum of all our experimental conclusions."

It is not "Cause and Effect" as Hume describes it, that enables us to reason about facts or anything else, but the premise that reality is rationally understandable. In the entire history of the world there has probably never been two identical causes or two identical effects. It was simple for Hume to show that his description of cause was impossible to know, but it was his own ignorant description of cause that was wrong, not the nature of cause itself.

Events do not cause events. All events are only the behavior of entities and the behavior of all entities is determined by the nature of those entities and their relationship to all other entities. Every event has a cause, but cause means an explanation for that event, and that explanation is always how an entity with a particular nature behaves in a particular context.

Bundle theory

The odd thing about bundle theory is that it seems very similar to my own ontology which I had fully developed before discovering Hume's theory. I was actually expecting his view to be the same as my own. It is very close.

He is absolutely right that there is no underlying, "substance," to which an entities properties (I call qualities) adhere. A thing is whatever it properties or qualities are. But qualities are not themselves independent existents that are somehow "bundled" together to make an entity what it is. An entity is whatever is qualities are, but those qualities do not exist independently of the entity they are qualities of. You may be interested in a brief overview of my ontology on this site: "Ontology Introduction"

On Miracles

I do not disagree with Hume's conclusion that there are no miracles, but I certainly disagree with his argument. Nothing can be established on the basis of other people's testimony, no matter how many or few support it. If a miracle is defined as that which happens in defiance of the nature of reality itself, it is impossible by definition, and no argument is required.

On induction

Hume's arguments regarding induction rest on his false view of causation, but in one sense, his conclusion was correct. There is no such logical process as induction.

His argument against his own wrong view of cause, "It appears, then, that this idea of a necessary connexion among events arises from a number of similar instances which occur of the constant conjunction of these events; nor can that idea ever be suggested by any one of these instances, surveyed in all possible lights and positions. But there is nothing in a number of instances, different from every single instance, which is supposed to be exactly similar; except only, that after a repetition of similar instances, the mind is carried by habit, upon the appearance of one event, to expect its usual attendant, and to believe that it will exist," also assumes that induction is how science is done or that principles are established.

There really isn't such a thing as inductive reasoning, as though it were a different kind of reasoning, there is only deductive reasoning or logic. There is an inductive method, which is really nothing more than observation, a kind of research which looks for things that repeat or are similar, but nothing can be established by that method except the observation and data gathered, and possibly the development of a hypothesis about why there is a similarity or why there is repeated phenomena. If observation gets that far, a hypothesis can be tested, at which point it is deductive reason which is being used.

Our reason for believing the sun will rise tomorrow is not because it always has, but because we understand what the sun is, and that it's rising is due to the earth's rotation, both of which will continue barring some celestial cataclysm. Pre-scientific man may have believed many things based on nothing more than the observation a thing always happened, but that "knowledge" was very uncertain and the reason for famines (the rain that always came, didn't) and natural catastrophes (the volcano has only ever smoked in the past).

There is more to this issue than I can address here. What is mistakenly called induction is really a process of identification and concept formation.

==================================================

I've taken the time to address your questions because I believe you are interested. Of course this had to be very brief, because they are not simple questions that can be answered in a few sentences.

I'm also not very interested in refuting all the mistaken philosophy there is, especially since I think most of what goes by the name philosophy is mistaken. I am really only interested in what is true. What is false is infinite in scope and can never by fully addressed.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:52 pm So, for me, the whole of the moral question is answered thusly...

Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.
Here's our difference. For me the whole of the moral question (relative to others) is, "mind my own business and keep my hands to myself."
Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

Me, talkin' to Junkie Joe: Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.

Me, talikin' to myself: Mind my own damn business, keep my friggin' hands to myself, or else.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:39 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:52 pm So, for me, the whole of the moral question is answered thusly...

Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.
Here's our difference. For me the whole of the moral question (relative to others) is, "mind my own business and keep my hands to myself."
Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

Me, talkin' to Junkie Joe: Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.

Me, talikin' to myself: Mind my own damn business, keep my friggin' hands to myself, or else.
OK, you irascible old curmudgeon. I just happen have a special fondness for curmudgeons.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by henry quirk »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:39 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:51 pm
Here's our difference. For me the whole of the moral question (relative to others) is, "mind my own business and keep my hands to myself."
Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

Me, talkin' to Junkie Joe: Mind your own damn business, keep your friggin' hands to yourself, or else.

Me, talikin' to myself: Mind my own damn business, keep my friggin' hands to myself, or else.
OK, you irascible old curmudgeon. I just happen have a special fondness for curmudgeons.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:19 am "ALL Humans Ought To Breathe" is a Moral Objective Law as evident and justified from empirical evidence on human nature.

This is proof, that 'ought' can be derived from "is".
This 'ought' is reasoned and inferred from actual empirical evidence on human nature.
There is no hint of a moral ought being derived from a practical is in that statement.
In practical terms, humans ought (for practical reasons) to breathe regularly if their objective is to live.
In moral terms, humans ought (morally) to breathe, if continued life is morally desirable.
You did not derive a moral truth from a factual state of affairs. All you did was confuse two types of ought.

You keep making the same mistakes and learning nothing from them.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:38 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:37 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:14 pm
A, "guide," to what? Why should anyone follow a guide if they don't know what it is leading to?

[VA, would mind saying what your first langauge is? It might help, sometimes, in understanding exactly what you are trying to say. This is no at all a criticism. I speak some other languages but not as well as you do English.]
Note -what is morality;
  • Morality = principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
First of all, VA, I want to say I think you are using English very well as a second language. Knowing that does help me understand what you are saying.

I also think your definition of morality is correct, but it does not answer the question I asked. Moral or ethical principles should distinguish between right, wrong, good, and bad behavior, but what that definition does not provide is the answer to the question, "what determines what is right, wrong, good, or bad?
What is right & good versus good & evil must be defined precisely and justified as right and good from empirical evidence and justification and polished with philosophical critical thinking and reasoning.

I believed I have already provided the empirical justification and philosophical reason why the secular objective absolute moral rule "no human shall kill another human' is morally right thus it is morally wrong for a human to kill another human being.

One of the principle of morality is whatever is the secular objective absolute moral rule, it must be Universalized and it is applicable to each individual human being alive since all human beings are generic-human.

Now, if it is morally right for a human to kill another human being, then all individuals are permitted to kill another human, thus logically and by reason, at least in theory, at the worst, the human species will potentially be exterminated in the hands of humans. This is not a rational option.

On the other hand, when we adopt the objective moral rule, no human can kill another human, on a Universalized mode, there is no possibility of the human species be exterminated in the hands of humans.

Therefore by reason, the ideal objective moral rule 'no human shall kill another human' is definitely right morally - at least by reason in theory.
As I had stated since this is reasoned as ideal, it cannot be enforced but merely to act as a guide with a framework of morality and ethics.

In addition, the above ideal objective moral rule can be justified from empirical evidences and tested by anyone objectively.

From the above I have justified via reason what is morally right and morally wrong.
The next stage is to define what is right & good versus good & evil.
In this case we need to list and structure what are the human acts [ALL] that are right/good or wrong/evil. Each must be justified with reason and empirical evidence like what I did with 'killing' above.
Then the list of good and evil acts will be organized within a hierarchy with various values using etiology. Surely killing as morally wrong [in genocide and mass murder] cannot have the same value as lying, stealing, petty crimes as a moral wrongs.

When we discussed this earlier I tried to make the same point:
Good and bad, right and wrong, important and unimportant are value terms. All value terms are concepts of relationship. Any action, for example, is only right or wrong relative to some objective, (a purpose, end, or goal), that is to be achieved. An action is right if it achieves the objective, but it is wrong if it fails to achieve the objective. Nothing is just good or bad unless your specify what a thing is good or bad for and to whom. There are no intrinsic values.
And you partly agreed:
Agree, good and evil are value terms relative to a framework and system within reality.
In the case of good and evil in relation to the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics, they are terms relative to the Framework and System of Human Nature in regards to human actions and their impact on other humans.
Only individual conscious beings have objectives, purposes, ends, or goals, not "frameworks." You still haven't identified what moral values are for. I agree, if there are moral principles, they must be for the benefit of human beings, but only for the individuals who observe them. Your statement about one's actions, "impact on others," turns moral principles into something social, not individual.
Yes, only individual conscious beings have objectives, purposes, ends, or goals, but we need a 'Framework' within the individual and the collective to organize and assist them in achieving those ends.
Note, if a person adopts the moral rule e.g. "killing another is permissible", surely that individual's view will potentially has an impact on others. This is not social.
Here is another way to ask the question. Why should anyone behave according to moral principles if that behavior is not for the individual's own benefit?
It is not a should.
When the individual moral competence is highly develop, his moral actions will be for the individual's survival and at the same time spontaneous in alignment with the preservation of the species, not with the possibility of exterminating the human species.

The individual will not be deciding whether he should do A, B or C like those scenarios in the trolley dilemmas and problems.

The individual being morally spontaneous may in practice result in deaths, but then his moral auto servomechanism will take corrective actions to strive towards the ideal in future.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:19 am "ALL Humans Ought To Breathe" is a Moral Objective Law as evident and justified from empirical evidence on human nature.

This is proof, that 'ought' can be derived from "is".
This 'ought' is reasoned and inferred from actual empirical evidence on human nature.
There is no hint of a moral ought being derived from a practical is in that statement.
In practical terms, humans ought (for practical reasons) to breathe regularly if their objective is to live.
In moral terms, humans ought (morally) to breathe, if continued life is morally desirable.
You did not derive a moral truth from a factual state of affairs. All you did was confuse two types of ought.

You keep making the same mistakes and learning nothing from them.
In the case of Hume's no 'ought' from 'is' he was referring to some sort of ontological objective moral rule from empirical facts.

What I have shown above is an abstraction of an 'ought' is possible from empirical facts.
It does not matter it is practical or biological, it is still an 'ought' i.e. an imperative ought all human must exercise.

Then I justify the above ought as a secular objective absolute moral rule, not an ontological moral rule as in Hume's case.

It is "intelligence" to twist a dilemma into a practical solution re the PURE [morality] and APPLIED [ethics] aspects of human behaviors.

My concern here is with Morality and how it can take effect in a positive and efficient manner;
  • Morality = principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
  • Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.[1]
    Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2]
    Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".
    -wiki

Your counter re an ontological moral law will gone on "till the cows come home" is thus counter-productive with no hope of positive result and progress for humanity.

What I have done is to take action to proposed a Framework and System of Morality and Ethics that will work and be efficient by embedding the secular objective absolute moral rules/laws as justified above.
There are loads of potentials in the future re progress in morality from what I have proposed.

What I have done with 'the ought to breathe' is easily explained to other oughts of human behavior, e.g. "ALL Humans ought not to kill another human" as justified, etc.

Note whatever such oughts are justified, they are not to be enforced but merely to acts as a GUIDE for progress and improvements in Moral and Ethical issues.

What is evident is, there are already clues of what I proposed is already in action albeit not in a proper and effective Framework and System of Morality and Ethics.
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:00 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:21 am I suggest, instead of going all over with Hume, why not critique Hume's main proposals, i.e.

1. Causation
2. Bundle theory
3. On Miracles
4. On induction

If you can convince me Hume was wrong on the above, then I will accept Hume was a very bad philosopher.
I have no interest in convincing you of anything, VA. I'm always interested in good conversation, but have no desire or interest in changing what anyone else chooses to think or believe. I will address the four issues you suggested only because you seem interested. I will only be able to provide a brief critique here, of course, but I have addressed most of these issues at length elsewhere if you are interested.

I will begin with one point you did not list, Hume's terrible epistemology which led to all his other mistakes.

Epistemology

Hume's notion of what ideas (or concepts) actually consist of is that of a child or uncivilized savage.

For Hume, "ideas" are like fuzzy pictures or representations of what we directly experience. The idea "dog" or "table" is just an incomplete "picture" of a dog or table recalled from memory. This is the epistemology of a child or a brute, not that of philosopher.

In Hume's footnote to his final section, "Section XII—Of the Academical Or Sceptical Philosophy," he makes his view explicit: "Thus when the term Horse is pronounced, we immediately figure [picture] to ourselves the idea of a black or a white animal, of a particular size or figure: But as that term is also usually applied to animals of other colours, figures and sizes, these ideas, though not actually present to the imagination, are easily recalled; and our reasoning and conclusion proceed in the same way, as if they were actually present."

If you've ever heard someone say, "our ideas can never be as perfect as real things," or "our ideas of things are always incomplete," they are expressing Hume's notion of ideas, which is, at best, pre-Aristotelian. This particular Humean infection is so intrenched in academia and every intellectual field today, that the Aristotelian understanding of what concepts (ideas) actually are has almost been lost.

An idea or concept is not a "picture" or "representation" of anything. A concept is the identification of an existent (entity or idea) or a class of existents (entities or other ideas).

The meaning of a concept is the entity or entities it identifies, with all their qualities, attributes, and relationships, whether those qualities, attributes, and relationships (beyond those necessary for their identification) are known or not. The concept designated by the word "dog," for example, means every dog there is, ever was, ever will be, or can be imagined.

[Please see my article on this site, "Epistemology, Concepts", for a brief overview of a correct epistemology.]
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This is a better approach, i.e. point by point.

I believe your condemnations of Hume
"a child or uncivilized savage."
"the epistemology of a child or a brute, not that of philosopher."
should be more correctly directed back to represent yourself.

It is very immature to condemn Hume for his views in 'ideas' and 'concepts' because the notable polemics on the dichotomy of views on "ideas" [philosophical] were raised long before Hume, i.e. back to Plato and 10,000 years ago in Eastern Philosophy.
Plato argued in dialogues such as the Phaedo, Symposium, Republic, and Timaeus that there is a realm of ideas or forms (eidei), which exist independently of anyone who may have thoughts on these ideas, and it is the ideas which distinguish mere opinion from knowledge, for unlike material things which are transient and liable to contrary properties, ideas are unchanging and nothing but just what they are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea


Since then many Philosophers had countered Plato's ideas;
In striking contrast to Plato's use of idea [7] is that of John Locke. In his Introduction to An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Locke defines idea as "that term which, I think, serves best to stand for whatsoever is the object of the understanding when a man thinks, I have used it to express whatever is meant by phantasm, notion, species, or whatever it is which the mind can be employed about in thinking; and I could not avoid frequently using it." [8] He said he regarded the book necessary to examine our own abilities and see what objects our understandings were, or were not, fitted to deal with.
In his philosophy other outstanding figures followed in his footsteps — Hume and Kant in the 18th century, Arthur Schopenhauer in the 19th century, and Bertrand Russell, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and Karl Popper in the 20th century.


Lately from the neurosciences, cognitive science, the views of 'ideas' are aligned with those of Locke, Hume, Kant and others.

Why do you only condemned Hume in this case?
You should condemn those who disagree with Plato and you on a class basis.

Instead of condemning Hume you should argue your views on ideas on a collective basis against the Philosophical Anti-Realists. i.e.
Philosophical Realist versus Philosophical Anti-Realist.
The above is reducible to the arguments,
for the Philosophical Realist, the ideas and its objects are independent of the human mind,
while
for the Philosophical Anti-Realism, the ideas and its objects are somehow inevitably linked with the human conditions.

Instead of Hume, the better one to counter for you would be Kant who claimed there is no such thing-in-itself or things-in-themselves but rather things are things-by-humanselves.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL Humans Ought To Breathe is a Moral Objective

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:00 pm Causation

If you want to destroy a legitimate concept, especially if it is not well understood, just describe and explain that concept in a plausible but incorrect way and proceed to demonstrate the concept, as described, is logically impossible. The concept in this case is causality, which Hume totally corrupted.

The right meaning of the concept cause is that the events of this world are not random and disconnected but that things happen for a reason which lies squarely in the nature of things and their relationships. Causality is a very broad concept and subsumes more than mere "physical" causality, which is the only aspect of it Hume addressed.
The implied (and correct) assumption behind causality is that the world is objectively real, and that the principles that describe its nature can be discovered, and that description, to the extent it is complete and correct, explains why things behave as they do and have the relationships they have.
All knowledge, from science to philosophy is dependent on this premise. If doubt is cast on that premise, doubt is cast on all knowledge.

By completely misidentifying the nature of cause, Hume not only destroys the basis of all science, but all abstract knowledge. He wrote: "All reasonings concerning matter of fact seem to be founded on the relation of Cause and Effect," which in his view is the same cause always produces the same effect. "From causes which appear similar we expect similar effects. This is the sum of all our experimental conclusions."

It is not "Cause and Effect" as Hume describes it, that enables us to reason about facts or anything else, but the premise that reality is rationally understandable. In the entire history of the world there has probably never been two identical causes or two identical effects. It was simple for Hume to show that his description of cause was impossible to know, but it was his own ignorant description of cause that was wrong, not the nature of cause itself.

Events do not cause events. All events are only the behavior of entities and the behavior of all entities is determined by the nature of those entities and their relationship to all other entities. Every event has a cause, but cause means an explanation for that event, and that explanation is always how an entity with a particular nature behaves in a particular context.
Note again, it is not only Hume who countered the theory of causation. The Eastern philosophers had been proposing causation to the human condition rather that causation-in-itself that occur independent of the observer and participants.

What Hume pointed out is causation is traced to human psychology from the exposure of constant conjunction to customs and habits.
Note the clue from the Wave Collapse Function where we cannot extricate the human factor from quantum cause and effects.

Your above is based on the following assumption:
The implied (and correct) assumption behind causality is that the world is objectively real..
You merely assumed but have no proofs.
Again this is reducible to the Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism contention.
Note this is linked back far to Protagoras, Heraclitus versus Plato, Aristotle.

Thus it would be more effective to prove the Philosophical Anti-Realist are wrong, e.g. those views of Kant.
Hume views on ideas are not as organized as that of Kant's.
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