Don’t call me an anti-vaxer

[Skepdick]

Your posts reveal sound reasoning, but which do you think has greater weight: sound reasoning or unreasonable fear?

The latter.

Which is why the former approach (arguing) doesn't work.

You can't reason with emotion. First you have to establish trust/rapport and demonstrate yourself as reliable authority figure.

[commonsense]

And: Common, you're a goddamned anti-vaxer!

HQ, you know better than to call me that. You alone are aware of my style.

[Gary Childress]

Apparently, they were having trouble a year ago with measles spreading among non-vaccinated children. If too many people refuse to vaccinate their children and an epidemic arises, it could lead to increased health care costs and hospitals could become swamped with patients. All in all, a few people may be able to get away without vaccination but if it becomes more widespread there would be hell to pay.

[henry quirk]

And: Common, you're a goddamned anti-vaxer!

HQ, you know better than to call me that. You alone are aware of my style.

please don't punish me, ROBOT OVERLORD...not again...

[henry quirk]

...sez Dick Shamus

[commonsense]

Your posts reveal sound reasoning, but which do you think has greater weight: sound reasoning or unreasonable fear?

The latter.

Which is why the former approach (arguing) doesn't work.

You can't reason with emotion. First you have to establish trust/rapport and demonstrate yourself as reliable authority figure.

That sounds like it would take a very long time, not to mention a considerable amount of commitment and effort.

To make matters worse, there may be biases that complicate the issue further: on the side of reason are those who are educated or highly educated; on the side of basic human fear are those who continued to go to school while compulsory but were average or below average learners at best. One is likely to be predisposed to dislike/distrust the other.

How would you advise a scientific person to approach an anti-vaxer or other conspiracy believer?

[commonsense]

I don’t trust the scientists who say the shots are safe. I bet if vaccine safety was crowd sourced it would be obvious that they’re wrong.

I was vaccinated when I was a child as were all my classmates. I don't know of anyone who developed any serious complications from it. I certainly didn't. I'm not sure which is the bigger gamble, not vaccinating your child or vaccinating him or her, but I suppose you are right, if you don't want your child to be vaccinated, it's probably your business.

But some of the other members who’ve posted on this thread would likely be inclined to say it is indeed everyone’s business.

[henry quirk]

I don’t trust the scientists who say the shots are safe. I bet if vaccine safety was crowd sourced it would be obvious that they’re wrong.

I was vaccinated when I was a child as were all my classmates. I don't know of anyone who developed any serious complications from it. I certainly didn't. I'm not sure which is the bigger gamble, not vaccinating your child or vaccinating him or her, but I suppose you are right, if you don't want your child to be vaccinated, it's probably your business.

But some of the other members who’ve posted on this thread would likely be inclined to say it is indeed everyone’s business.

seems to me: if I've vaccinated and immunized my kid out the wazoo, then I probably don't have much to worry about if the other kidlets are walkin' around as incubators

[Skepdick]

That sounds like it would take a very long time, not to mention a considerable amount of commitment and effort.

Oh yea! It absolutely doesn't scale. And doesn't pay itself forward.

If you are going to stick it through, you must care deeply about the other person. And in the end it could still get you nowhere, or worse - you could cement them into their position (especially if you get busted proselytising).

How would you advise a scientific person to approach an anti-vaxer or other conspiracy believer?

Humanise yourself. The formal mood in which Philosophy and debate is usually carried out is way too antagonistic. It puts people on the defensive even further. Don't argue, communicate.

I could pretend that there is a universal answer here, but there really isn't. It really requires giving up your entire reference frame and putting yourself in their shoes, using their language.

Only the person whose mind you are trying to change knows what would change their mind. So you have to figure out what that is. They won't tell you.

[Skepdick]

seems to me: if I've vaccinated and immunized my kid out the wazoo, then I probably don't have much to worry about if the other kidlets are walkin' around as incubators

A small percentage of children are not immunizable for valid medical reasons. If you are the parent of one of those kids, you literally have to place your faith in herd immunity.

[Gary Childress]

I don’t trust the scientists who say the shots are safe. I bet if vaccine safety was crowd sourced it would be obvious that they’re wrong.

I was vaccinated when I was a child as were all my classmates. I don't know of anyone who developed any serious complications from it. I certainly didn't. I'm not sure which is the bigger gamble, not vaccinating your child or vaccinating him or her, but I suppose you are right, if you don't want your child to be vaccinated, it's probably your business.

But some of the other members who’ve posted on this thread would likely be inclined to say it is indeed everyone’s business.

Like I say, if more and more people thought like you, we'd eventually have hell to pay. And most people don't want to go through hell. As long as you are an isolated minority, things should be OK, I would think.

[henry quirk]

seems to me: if I've vaccinated and immunized my kid out the wazoo, then I probably don't have much to worry about if the other kidlets are walkin' around as incubators

A small percentage of children are not immunizable for valid medical reasons. If you are the parent of one of those kids, you literally have to place your faith in herd immunity.

yep, hard road, buy that plot, salt it with tears

[FlashDangerpants]

This whole situation means that mothers in some places, like Oregon, are forced to “consent” to vaccines if they want their children to go to public schools or even to go to extracurricular activities like soccer and basketball. Now they’re even talking about banning a child who’s unvaccinated from going to any public spaces, like a mall or a movie theater. That’s an infringement on parental rights.

You don't have a right to use your own child as a weapon of germ warfare against children with compromised immune systems who rely on the herd immunity you are destroying. If you want to keep your children unvaccinated then you have to keep them apart, they can only go to places where they cannot cause a major outbreak.

I know there’s such a thing as natural immunity anyway. If there’s a natural way to develop immunity against disease, shouldn’t everyone do it that way?

Because some of them have cancer and they will die if they try. And those kids with cancer are only safe at all if at least 95% of the kids around them are vaccinated. So that's a life and death choice for someone else's family you are demanding the right to make for yourself.

A mother is only responsible for her own children. There will still be 95% vaccinated because that’s how gullible most people are. Not all children have cancer anyway.

Your herd immunity objection is demonstrated untrue simply by the preventalbe outbreaks of measles that have occurred in Europe and North America because of people like you in the last few years.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 133918.htm

Your comments on cancer are not conducive to the respectful replies you have requested and I suggest you think about what you have done there.

You want freedom, you get responsibilty, that's the usual deal is it not? Just saying other people's children with lukaemia are not my responsiblity is not playing the game fair. You make your kids into a disease pit, maybe that is your private business. But you send them out to spread disease, that's a responsiblity shirked.

[Impenitent]

...out the wazoo, then I probably don't have much to worry about...

sounds more like anti-wazoo...

can't you see it? dozens of liberals marching through downtown San Francisco- marching past thousands of homeless junkies- what do we want? wazoo rights!!!

-Imp

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I think the flu one is pointless, but that's not one of the childhood ones anyway. Only idiots are against vaccinations for polio, diptheria, tetanus, whooping cough. Those have no side effects. Let me guess, you are against fluoride in the water too? Those two things usually go hand in hand.