Renewing the Mind

[Nick_A]

Matthew 9

14 Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?”

15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

16 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17 Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

I've noticed that many questions like that of free will are discussed in the usual ways which according to Christianity cannot lead to meaningful results. But is there an additional way of discussing these meaningful questions that don't do more harm than good? Is there a way of putting new ideas from renewing the mind into new wineskins that don't break from the force of a new more human perspective?

Romans 12 New International Version (NIV)
A Living Sacrifice
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Have you ever thought about what it means to renew your mind? Plato wrote of turning to the light; is this the same idea? What does it mean for the body to be a living sacrifice? Can you contemplate it in a new way without fears of sadistic practices? Of course those who are not open to what it means to renew the mind will seek to destroy significance of this profound conception. But if you are open to what it means to renew the mind perhaps we can discuss it and appreciate what it means to put new wine into new bottles in a positive light.

[henry quirk]

In context: renewing the mind might be considered cleansing the mind, or even an excision of the mind.

And turning to the light: in darkness, you can't see. Your eyes are open but nuthin' enters. Literally, nuthin' is conveyed into your eyes, and mind. Moreover, the light is mebbe behind you. Mebbe you faced it once and turned away. Mebbe it shouid be turning back to the light.

I'll have to think a bit on this before I comment more.

[Nick_A]

In context: renewing the mind might be considered cleansing the mind, or even an excision of the mind.

And turning to the light: in darkness, you can't see. Your eyes are open but nuthin' enters. Literally, nuthin' is conveyed into your eyes, and mind. Moreover, the light is mebbe behind you. Mebbe you faced it once and turned away. Mebbe it shouid be turning back to the light.

I'll have to think a bit on this before I comment more.

I agree with you about the impression of the light behind you. I sense it as the source of what my senses are attracted to. Mostly my awareness is limited to what is in front of me. Yet sometimes I become aware that there is a greater reality behind and above me that a deeper part of me just remembered and is drawn to.

I like what you wrote on cleansing. I see it as the process of cleansing from the results of imagination taking the place of the real experience of the external world.

There is a lot in this idea of renewing the mind but it seems only a minority can be willing to sacrifice their reliance on imagination for the sake of our deeper mutual need to be real

[Veritas Aequitas]

The brain/mind is "almost" [not exactly] like a computer with its operating systems and application softwares.

Renewing the Mind would meant reprogramming some of the software applications to align the individual with the flow of humanity.

The human brain/mind of all human beings has sub-programs for Philosophy, wisdom, morality, intelligences, reason, etc. Thus understanding how these sub-programs work will enable individuals to improve their human_ness to align with the flow of humanity.

Note for example, at present there are smart pills and exercises to make a person smarter in rewiring the neurons in their brain/mind.
e.g. https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/st ... ally_make/

It is a matter of time, humanity will be able to develop strategies to train the individual brain/mind toward perpetual peace for all.
As such there is no need for God, theism or theistic religions, spirituality and beliefs if you happen to be thinking in that direction with your OP.

[Nick_A]

The brain/mind is "almost" [not exactly] like a computer with its operating systems and application softwares.

Renewing the Mind would meant reprogramming some of the software applications to align the individual with the flow of humanity.

The human brain/mind of all human beings has sub-programs for Philosophy, wisdom, morality, intelligences, reason, etc. Thus understanding how these sub-programs work will enable individuals to improve their human_ness to align with the flow of humanity.

Note for example, at present there are smart pills and exercises to make a person smarter in rewiring the neurons in their brain/mind.
e.g. https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/st ... ally_make/

It is a matter of time, humanity will be able to develop strategies to train the individual brain/mind toward perpetual peace for all.
As such there is no need for God, theism or theistic religions, spirituality and beliefs if you happen to be thinking in that direction with your OP.

Paul was not referring to the dualistic computer brain of man on earth and improving the computer. He is referring to becoming aware of our conscious connection to the source of our existence from which objective human meaning and purpose arose

This requires "putting new wine into new bottles." The dualistic computer brain is the old bottle. Do you have an idea what new wine and new bottles refesr to?

[Lacewing]

The brain/mind is "almost" [not exactly] like a computer with its operating systems and application softwares.

Renewing the Mind would meant reprogramming some of the software applications to align the individual with the flow of humanity.

The human brain/mind of all human beings has sub-programs for Philosophy, wisdom, morality, intelligences, reason, etc. Thus understanding how these sub-programs work will enable individuals to improve their human_ness to align with the flow of humanity.

Note for example, at present there are smart pills and exercises to make a person smarter in rewiring the neurons in their brain/mind.
e.g. https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/st ... ally_make/

It is a matter of time, humanity will be able to develop strategies to train the individual brain/mind toward perpetual peace for all.
As such there is no need for God, theism or theistic religions, spirituality and beliefs if you happen to be thinking in that direction with your OP.

Well stated. In a way, ideas of gods and theism and religions and all sorts of other beliefs could be like spam, malware, ads, and bloatware to our mental programming/software. Even though the programs may provide some value for various purposes, they often appear to contain much more than initially expected with the download.

[Nick_A]

The brain/mind is "almost" [not exactly] like a computer with its operating systems and application softwares.

Renewing the Mind would meant reprogramming some of the software applications to align the individual with the flow of humanity.

The human brain/mind of all human beings has sub-programs for Philosophy, wisdom, morality, intelligences, reason, etc. Thus understanding how these sub-programs work will enable individuals to improve their human_ness to align with the flow of humanity.

Note for example, at present there are smart pills and exercises to make a person smarter in rewiring the neurons in their brain/mind.
e.g. https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/st ... ally_make/

It is a matter of time, humanity will be able to develop strategies to train the individual brain/mind toward perpetual peace for all.
As such there is no need for God, theism or theistic religions, spirituality and beliefs if you happen to be thinking in that direction with your OP.

Well stated. In a way, ideas of gods and theism and religions and all sorts of other beliefs could be like spam, malware, ads, and bloatware to our mental programming/software. Even though the programs may provide some value for various purposes, they often appear to contain much more than initially expected with the download.

How to transcend reliance on beliefs? Paul wrote: 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.


Veritas and Lacewing favor conforming to the patterns of this world in ways they find meaningful. Paul is referring to something the patterns of the world reject but an individual can come to value by renewing the mind. What is the new wine (knowledge) which can be put into new bottles? (perspective?)

[Lacewing]

How to transcend reliance on beliefs? Paul wrote: 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Okay...nothing profound...makes sense as long as you don't take it to some kind of distorted extreme. As with anything taken to such an extreme, you lose context and balance in favor of self-serving interpretation.

Veritas and Lacewing favor conforming to the patterns of this world in ways they find meaningful.

This world is beautiful and sacred to me, so I appreciate and dance with it. I'm definitely not a conformist though...as you surely know from my posts and our conversations, but you keep distorting and lying about that in service to those self-serving interpretations you love and apparently need so desperately. Broader truth... broader potential... are enemies of your small controlled fantasies, and nothing must get in the way of your imagination and how it serves you!

Paul is referring to something the patterns of the world reject but an individual can come to value by renewing the mind.

You're making this way more convoluted and limited than it needs to be. You didn't know Paul personally, you're not his interpreter, and Paul was not some ultimate authority on the entire evolving world. So really, what difference does it make what he said? We all have access to greater awareness in a way that makes sense for ourselves. It's so unnecessary to be a rabid, extreme martyr as you seem intent on being. The world is not dependent on people like that -- it does not need their particular babblings in order to be "saved". It's such an ego trip to cast oneself in such an important and knowing role. You try to obscure how self-serving it is by claiming to be part of a "minority". Are most of them from another era (so that you can claim to know everything they thought and meant)?

The best thing you can do for the world, surely, is to realize how much you are in service to needs within yourself. Then you can learn compassion for your fears and errors, which will give you much greater compassion for everyone else too. The more love and connection you can see in the world, the less hatefulness and separation you'll feel compelled to focus on.

[Nick_A]

Lacewing

It's so unnecessary to be a rabid, extreme martyr as you seem intent on being.

I know why the great perennial ideas I resonate with are rejected by the world but I still don't see why what I value is seen as rabid and extreme. It seems that the absurdity of the world is considered normal so those who question the reason for absurdity must be rabid and extreme with a likely martyr complex. I don't get it.

So I have to ask you why you are attracted to philosophy? I have always for one reason or another been curious about the meaning and purpose of our great universe and the objective purpose of life within it including man on earth. Philosophy is one way of discovering ideas which can answer these great questions.

What is your attraction to philosophy? You seem concerned with enjoying life and being happy. There is nothing wrong with this but what does it have to do with philosophy and the question of "why" which seems to be essential for the human need to feel meaning at the depth of their being.

It does seem reasonable that all those with the need to feel objective meaning have to consider what renewing the mind means. But obviously many are content to reason in what is called the normal way or just reacting to the ever changing shadows on the wall in Plato's cave. You don't like to read it but it is obvious only minority have bothered to wonder about what it means to put new wine into new bottles and just relate it to ever changing secular concepts So what is your attraction to philosophy? Isn't it better to forget about these questions of meaning and purpose and just try to be happy with experiencing the natural world?

[Walker]

Have you ever thought about what it means to renew your mind?

Yes. After continuity of thought is interrupted continuity subsequently resumes, refreshed to an uncluttered world, a world experienced fresh. A commonly known experience of this resumption is emergence from dreamless sleep.

Imagine a clear pool of water over a bed of silt. The clear water is reality. The silt is thought. An event happens. Horses gallop through the pool and stir up the thoughts. Thoughts crowd into the clear pool of reality, swirling and colliding. During daily events some of the silt thickens into familiar identities and thus connects to the most recent continuity.

Eventually, dreamless sleep again settles the silt and again refreshes the mind into stillness. If upon the next awakening the old silty memories remain undisturbed on the pool bed and do not mingle with the clear pool of reality that contains no objects, then before the I thought of the known world again arises from the mud, awareness will remain suspended in the still, clear pool of reality, a clean resonance untouched by time or thought.

[Lacewing]

So I have to ask you why you are attracted to philosophy?

It's just a way of being and thinking. It's not something I seek. I have always felt that it's natural to notice the connections of things. And when one notices that, without piling a bunch of stories on top, it's a very interesting journey...quite naturally. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes or imagines... it's simply a matter of noticing and thinking about what the implications might be. It doesn't need to be turned into a story or religion.

For me, it's not about making up rules...because those are human-made and must surely have limitation and ego or need attached to them. That is what I see in your ideas and the way you project them onto people. You seem not to see the people right in front of you (even if they're only online), because you prefer to fit everything into your stories (whether it's shadows on the wall, or a great beast, or the blindness and hate of secularism, or courage only of a minority). What if everything/everyone beyond yourself doesn't actually fit into your stories? Truly, they don't! It would be absolutely absurd for the entirety of existence and potential to be modeled and ruled according to your limited stories...and it seems the height of arrogance (and foolishness or delusion?) for you to think such a thing. I don't hate your ideas... I just think they're too limited and contrived.

I have always for one reason or another been curious about the meaning and purpose of our great universe and the objective purpose of life within it including man on earth. Philosophy is one way of discovering ideas which can answer these great questions.

And you think you've got it "locked down" now? Why did you stop being curious and open to meanings and purposes...or the absence of them? Why are you limiting what the "answers" can be?

Can you fathom that there are greater truths beyond and in contrast with your preferred set of models/ideas? If not, how is it exploring philosophy for you to continually shore up and obsess over a limited set of ideas?

[Nick_A]

[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

Obviously we see thing differently, You realize philosophy by moving back and forth in the pendulum. and I see it vertically in the moment. in the minority of the moment. There is no use continuing

[Lacewing]

You realize philosophy by moving back and forth in the pendulum.

Wrong again, Nick.

There is no use continuing

Especially when you can't see/acknowledge anything beyond your limited ideas, and you project your distortions onto other people. There's no way to have an honest interaction of greater awareness when you're a soldier who will do/pledge anything for your agenda.

[Nick_A]

Have you ever thought about what it means to renew your mind?

Yes. After continuity of thought is interrupted continuity subsequently resumes, refreshed to an uncluttered world, a world experienced fresh. A commonly known experience of this resumption is emergence from dreamless sleep.

Imagine a clear pool of water over a bed of silt. The clear water is reality. The silt is thought. An event happens. Horses gallop through the pool and stir up the thoughts. Thoughts crowd into the clear pool of reality, swirling and colliding. During daily events some of the silt thickens into familiar identities and thus connects to the most recent continuity.

Eventually, dreamless sleep again settles the silt and again refreshes the mind into stillness. If upon the next awakening the old silty memories remain undisturbed on the pool bed and do not mingle with the clear pool of reality that contains no objects, then before the I thought of the known world again arises from the mud, awareness will remain suspended in the still, clear pool of reality, a clean resonance untouched by time or thought.

You see for me walker i take the veiw of a universalist. From this perspective the soul of man or the objective of man begins pretty far down on the inversly octave. The value of the soul is to receive from above and give its value to below. Obviously it isn't well received. An Aeon is really defined by the cycle of conscious man entering the earth. when it is finlly asorbed by the earth it is time for the next arrival from above to serve to awaken where possible.

So the bottom line is that you see it. as the height nothing and I see it the beginning of somethin Man has potential for.

[henry quirk]

I haven't forgotten this thread: I may have some comments to add later this evening.