gaffo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:26 am
but Judaism and Islam affirm my Reciprocity Rule and not the Golden Rule BTW.
There's a third version, which is not the Golden Rule, but sounds like it: "do not do to others what you would not want to be done to you."
The problem with this is that whereas the GR specifies that you have to be actively nice to people, this one does not. It just says, "Leave people alone," and if that's all you do, you've kept the rule. So people mistakenly think they're both the GR, but this one is not.
gaffo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:03 amI am not an athiest, by the way, nor am I a theist.
?????? how to you play the camel to walk through the gate/needle on that one?
i do not see it, but asking honestly how you do.
I'm an Athiest, though always had interest and some knowledge of some Religions (mostly western - but need to inform myself more on Eastern one (its hard being a pleab of the west finding valid knowledge of say Janism vs Buddism, not to mention the many gods/forms of Hinduism.
most western sources are new age crap, I'm more interested in Easterner's (real indians) views of thier religion in the more traditional form.
which as i said is lacking in finding as a westerner.
I regard all varieties of superstition, religion, the mystical and supernatural as absurd nonsense. Deities are only some of the many things I do not believe in and I do not identify myself in terms of what I do not believe. I do not believe in astrology, alchemy, or gnomes, but I do not call myself an a-astrologist, or a-alchemist, or a-gnomesist. There are just too many absurd things people believe in this world to be concerned with not believing in them.
I'm also not anti-religious. I have no interest in changing anyone else's beliefs (which would be impossible anyway) and I'm certainly not anyone's enemy. Religion is a very broad subject. In this article I was only addressing the silliness of it all. Here is another of my views on religion: "An Atheist's Defence of Christianity."
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:06 am
There is nothing 'humorous' with the above. It is the general facts and forms of how various religions are practiced in the world since long ago up the present time.
Well I'm sorry if you found no humor in it, and I hope you were not offended. I certainly warned the overly sensitive to avoid the article.
However, I must point out that I was only addressing one aspect of religion, the puerile absurdity of them all, which, "the general facts and forms of how various religions are practiced in the world since long ago," richly illustrate. Here is another of my views of religion you might find less offensive: "An Atheist's Defence of Christianity."
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:44 pm
It turns out that "religion" blends smoothly into "ideologies" on a grey scale, rather than the two being black-and-white. And that turns out to be true no matter what criterion one chooses, it seems.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm
There's a third version, which is not the Golden Rule, but sounds like it: "do not do to others what you would not want to be done to you."
G.B. Shaw pointed out what is wrong with the, "golden rule:" "Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same."
My own,"golden rule," is: "Don't do anything unto anyone else, unasked. Mind your own business."
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:38 pm
My own,"golden rule," is: "Don't do anything unto anyone else, unasked. Mind your own business."
Well, fair enough: however, that's not anything like the Golden Rule of Christianity, for sure. The GR actually enjoins a positive duty for us to do for others all the positive things one would wish for oneself, were roles reversed. It certainly doesn't stop at "mind your own business." In fact, if we read the context of the Christian GR as explained in Luke, it has to do with actively choosing to show practical love to enemies, not to friends.
Here it is:
“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Over-the-top rituals of people joining together to co-create and agree on some "higher/better" imaginative reality, to transcend their "usual" reality and (for some) to overcome ideas of self-loathing or unworthiness with dramatic demonstrations of "handing over oneself" to something larger. But WTF are they really handing themselves over to??? It's all very "disconnected" and in some cases violent from/against all else. And this is the toxic madness they encourage (or force) onto others, including children.
Yes, let's take a perfect young being who already knows/feels/loves its connection to all, and completely distort/destroy it with foolish man-made stories based on fear, hate, and power/control. Let's "save" the young child who doesn't need saving...and let's pull as many others as we can into our primitive and desperate intoxication.
It's so messed up...and yet many in our current state of humankind still don't seem to realize how much so. One's intelligence clearly does not protect them from religious intoxication. When there's a deficiency of the natural knowing/connection/love that one is born with, it's a deficiency that cannot be cured with more distortion and intoxication. Religious detox would be a good place to start. Keep what's in-line with one's earliest nature/love/connection, and let go of mankind's distortions (all of the controlling and self-righteous and wretched stories of eternal and ultimate condemnation and judgment and future rewards). That is controlling and destructive NONSENSE. It does not come from a place of love and connection...so that reveals what it's actually about.
We are born wonderfully perfect, and then we screw it up with stories about gods that we must seek because we are imperfect. Seriously, why should we believe this crap? Is someone/something going to tell us how to serve them in order to be perfect? Don't people want to vigorously question WHO they are serving? What kind of entity would look upon humankind in such a way and demand such things of them? It's ABSURD. And why is it that religious people and armies are typically the most evil in humankind's history? What are the implications of that? Isn't that worthy of vigorous and truthful examination? Saying, "well, because so-and-so said so" or "because we've been doing it that way since even earlier primitive times" are intoxicated answers. What logically makes sense?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:28 am
All religions, however, have the common Golden Rule as a morality,
not all of them (or most?)- i cannot refer to the 100's of "other religions" but i know quite a lot of the 3 Abrahamic ones.
of them only Christianity values the Golden Rule (do to others as you like them to do to you).
the other two - Islam and Judaism do not support that ideal, instead the support the more pragmatic ideal (one i support as an Athiest too) the rule of reciprociry (do to others as they do to you) - and AND never start a fight! ie, always offer a hand to the stanger, but if the stanger bite you bite him back!
Reciprocity is a dual of the Golden Rule, an extension of it as you are treating others as you would expect to be treated (ie if I do wrong I expect punishment). It is an extension of the Golden Rule.
Even a rudimentary study of religions shows that's simply not true. Some religions don't even have a God, and some are actively opposed to the GR.
Which religions do not have a concept of diety? Even pagan religions have a Great Spirit or Universal Spirit.
As for "the traditional family," if you mean the core family, it's the most functional social unit for the raising of children, so of course it's universal...but that has zero to do with religion. And if you look at the extended family roles, they vary widely among cultures.
Family roles have a core foundation of parenting and some form of marriage ceremony.
So the myth of the common core of all religions is just that, when one exams it with facts...a myth. At most, you could argue that a "religion" is different from a purely Materialistic ideology, and has something vaguely to do with "the spiritual." But not much more than that. And even that's open to contest.
You forgot the Golden Rule as a foundation for the majority of Faith's. Religion requires a form of self reflection and value formation.
FYI - nearly all "pagan" religions were/are Poltheistic.
"the great wolf" "the great lion" etc......
Yes they still worship deities with some people worshipping one of many deities.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Reciprocity is a dual of the Golden Rule,
Not at all so. The Golden Rule requires much more of us than mere "reciprocity." It positively commands active doing of good, and even the doing of good to actual enemies. Reciprocity only demands that we love those who love us first, and hate those who hate us: "get them before they get you," or at least, "get them after they get you," is all it takes to fulfill the principle of reciprocity. Otherwise, ignore those who ignore you works just fine too.
gaffo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:17 am
nearly all "pagan" religions were/are Poltheistic.
"the great wolf" "the great lion" etc......
Yes they still worship deities with some people worshipping one of many deities.
I was interested in attending a local pagan event... thinking it would be more focused on nature... but the invitation requested bringing offerings to a couple of specific pagan figures, and that just seems too "worshippy" for me. Why don't we bring offerings for this beautiful Earth experience that supports us, and for this opportunity of a vibrant, sensory-filled life, and to ourselves for surviving and navigating all the craziness and challenge of an Earth life? Doesn't matter what the religion is, it seems I'm just not into any particular stories about worshipping or glorifying imaginary or dead beings from long ago. There is so much in the present moment to embrace with appreciation and to gain awareness from.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:51 pm“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [Romans 12:20]
"Love your enemy, feed your enemy, give your enemy your coat," sounds very loving, until you get to Romans and find out what the real motive is.
I never seek revenge or retribution, because neither ever fixes or makes anything better. Always forgive, never forget! Reality will take care of justice.
Sure. As a lil bit of self-directin' reality, absolutely I'll take care of justice if need be. Abuse my kid? You gonna ride my Justice Train. Steal from me? Climb aboard my Justice Train. Work to leash me and mine? Here comes my Justice Train.
"Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I prefer mind your own business, keep your hands to yourself, or else.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:51 pm“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [Romans 12:20]
"Love your enemy, feed your enemy, give your enemy your coat," sounds very loving, until you get to Romans and find out what the real motive is.
You're thinking "coals of fire" is literal, rather than figurative, and speaks of real "hot coals" instead of inflaming the sense of shame someone feels when they've harmed someone who's done them wrong? In that case, it would seem that no Christian in history has obeyed the command as you see it. I have never seen any of them "heap hot coals" literally on anyone.
I think you're misreading there, RC.
In point of fact, I think there's a very real sense that if I harmed someone who turned around and showed me grace, that I would feel like I had hot coals in my heart, if not in on my head. But here's the favour such a person would have done me; to awaken me to what a complete moral wreck I was behaving like, and perchance to cause me to become ashamed and change. And those are "coals of fire" I would need.
