"Free will was given to man by god."

[Belinda]

Henry, a cohesive group is m ore than the sum of its parts. For instance wolves hunting prey are greater than disorganised individual wolves. A football team is greater than the individuals in it. Institutions are cohesive groups. Examples of institutions are :

Family
Church
Political party
Nation
Neighbourhood Watch group
Federation of states or provinces.
Women's Institute
House of Lords(UK)
The Louvre
Harvard University

[Belinda]

Henry, a cohesive group is m ore than the sum of its parts. For instance wolves hunting prey are greater than disorganised individual wolves. A football team is greater than the individuals in it. Institutions are cohesive groups. Examples of institutions are :

Family
Church
Political party
Nation
Neighbourhood Watch group
Federation of states or provinces.
Women's Institute
House of Lords(UK)
The Louvre
Harvard University

Jones, preyin' on the lost and the stupid, is not institutional, it's predation.

His predation was more dangerous because he got the lost and the stupid organised to the extent individuals found it hard to escape his organisation. I'd not call Jones's church "an institution" because it was not not legitimated by the more respected in society. However it shows how a cohesive group of N individuals is stronger for good or evil than N isolated individuals.

[Immanuel Can]

Immanuel Can, regarding civil liberties as they affect children:

https://www.aclu.org/other/childrens-ri ... ts-program

https://www.unicef.org.uk/what-we-do/un ... ld-rights/

So many problems with this.

First, they aren't "Enlightenment," at all.

Secondly, the aren't authoritative in any way at all...their list of rights, however worthy or unworthy they may be, are just shopping lists they hope for.

Are you suggesting that we are under some kind of duty to agree because the ACLU in the States or Unicef says we are?

[henry quirk]

Henry, a cohesive group is m ore than the sum of its parts. For instance wolves hunting prey are greater than disorganised individual wolves. A football team is greater than the individuals in it. Institutions are cohesive groups. Examples of institutions are :

Family
Church
Political party
Nation
Neighbourhood Watch group
Federation of states or provinces.
Women's Institute
House of Lords(UK)
The Louvre
Harvard University

No. Organized groups can do more than disorganized groups or individuals, but organized groups are not more than the sum of the folks in those organized groups.

What you're sayin'...

1+1+1+1=5 (or 7 or 36 or...)

4, that's all it is. 1+1+1+1=4

[henry quirk]

Henry, a cohesive group is m ore than the sum of its parts. For instance wolves hunting prey are greater than disorganised individual wolves. A football team is greater than the individuals in it. Institutions are cohesive groups. Examples of institutions are :

Family
Church
Political party
Nation
Neighbourhood Watch group
Federation of states or provinces.
Women's Institute
House of Lords(UK)
The Louvre
Harvard University

Jones, preyin' on the lost and the stupid, is not institutional, it's predation.

His predation was more dangerous because he got the lost and the stupid organised to the extent individuals found it hard to escape his organisation. I'd not call Jones's church "an institution" because it was not not legitimated by the more respected in society. However it shows how a cohesive group of N individuals is stronger for good or evil than N isolated individuals.

Sure, but that's not at all the same as a cohesive group bein' more than the sum of its parts.

20 men can flip a van far easier than one, but workin' to flip that hippy ride doesn't transform the 20 to 25 or 30. What they do together is strictly cuz they all direct their efforts to a common goal. 20 men wanna flip Chong's van; 20 men flip Chong's van. There's no multiplication, only addition.

[Nick_A]

Henry, a cohesive group is m ore than the sum of its parts. For instance wolves hunting prey are greater than disorganised individual wolves. A football team is greater than the individuals in it. Institutions are cohesive groups. Examples of institutions are :

Family
Church
Political party
Nation
Neighbourhood Watch group
Federation of states or provinces.
Women's Institute
House of Lords(UK)
The Louvre
Harvard University

A mob is a cohesive group more than the sum of its parts. It contains attributes which make a mob possible. is an individual capable of seeing the mob for what it is and desire to be more than a mob in defiance of what makes the mob possible more or less than the mob? I guess the only ones qualified to judge a mob's political correctness are the experts from Harvard University?????? Progressive logic

[Belinda]

A mob isn't legitimated by respected members of society nor is a mob a resilient or a long- lasting feature of a society. There have been mobs that turned into institutions. This happened when a mob got leaders who organised that otherwise disorganised aggregate in such a way that the mob overthrew established institutions. At that point the leaders of the erstwhile mob had legitimated the mob's concerns by had accruing some power over its own people and bargaining power with its contenders.

ISIS is interesting in this regard. Its members regard ISIS as legitimate but outsiders don't.
The Mafia is another borderline case. The Mafia is a parasite upon normal society so it's not graced with "institution". It is however an organisation to be reckoned with.

Institutions, and parasitical organisations ,both exert influence upon their members. They do so by peer pressure and pressure from the ruling elites. In the case of the Mafia, and probably ISIS too , the ruling elites exert more pressure than do peers. This is because these organisations are very authoritarian and lack qualities of a network of equals.

Talk of mobs, respected institutions, and illegal organisations is not talk about ontic Free Will but freedom of choice.

This thread should be discussing the difference between freedom of choice i.e. freedom to assemble, converse, and think, as compared with ontic Free Will. The latter is not natural but is other worldly as it (so-called Free Will) is not caused by the subject's circumstances or any law of nature.In short, the only possible explanation for ontic Free Will is that it was given to man, and only to man, by God.

[Nick_A]

A mob isn't legitimated by respected members of society nor is a mob a resilient or a long- lasting feature of a society. There have been mobs that turned into institutions. This happened when a mob got leaders who organised that otherwise disorganised aggregate in such a way that the mob overthrew established institutions. At that point the leaders of the erstwhile mob had legitimated the mob's concerns by had accruing some power over its own people and bargaining power with its contenders.

ISIS is interesting in this regard. Its members regard ISIS as legitimate but outsiders don't.
The Mafia is another borderline case. The Mafia is a parasite upon normal society so it's not graced with "institution". It is however an organisation to be reckoned with.

Institutions, and parasitical organisations ,both exert influence upon their members. They do so by peer pressure and pressure from the ruling elites. In the case of the Mafia, and probably ISIS too , the ruling elites exert more pressure than do peers. This is because these organisations are very authoritarian and lack qualities of a network of equals.

Talk of mobs, respected institutions, and illegal organisations is not talk about ontic Free Will but freedom of choice.

This thread should be discussing the difference between freedom of choice i.e. freedom to assemble, converse, and think, as compared with ontic Free Will. The latter is not natural but is other worldly as it (so-called Free Will) is not caused by the subject's circumstances or any law of nature.In short, the only possible explanation for ontic Free Will is that it was given to man, and only to man, by God.

"When a man joins a political party, he submissively adopts a mental attitude which he will express later on with words such as, ‘As a monarchist, as a Socialist, I think that …’ It is so comfortable! It amounts to having no thoughts at all. Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Simone Weil

If Simone is right, IYO when a person joins a political party are they joining an institution as described or just becoming part of a non-thinking mob?

[Belinda]

Many people join political parties and then switch to a different political party. Some people join a political party because of one issue only.

A political party is instituted by its manifesto and stated intentions and policies.

Some people join a political party because it defines the image of themselves. I think this would be the motivation of the sort of people she described, Nick. There are people who cannot be happy unless they feel themselves to be part of a group of people who agree with them.

[Nick_A]

Many people join political parties and then switch to a different political party. Some people join a political party because of one issue only.

A political party is instituted by its manifesto and stated intentions and policies.

Some people join a political party because it defines the image of themselves. I think this would be the motivation of the sort of people she described, Nick. There are people who cannot be happy unless they feel themselves to be part of a group of people who agree with them.

I agree that part of the attraction of a mob or political party is the feeling that others agree. Take the concept of social justice for example. How many proponents of social justice have ever thought for a moment of what justice is. But the benefit of the mob is not having to think. Just shoot da bastard and be done with it It really is the same with demonstrations by political parties or the conditioning process which creates snowflakes in college. Being part of this group doesn't require thought. Just follow the mob.

Only the individuals will take the question of the meaning of justice seriously. It would be the goal of philosophy to be able to contemplate such a concept as social justice. But we see it is condemned in favor of thoughtless mob reaction to both conditioned blind belief and blind denial. Conditioned thoughtless reactions are fought over by collectives. Simone is one of these rare people who invite me to reason as a human being and not as part of a conditioned collective regardless of the growls it may arouse. How can I not admire them.

[Belinda]

Simone is one of these rare people who invite me to reason as a human being and not as part of a conditioned collective regardless of the growls it may arouse. How can I not admire them.

There are plenty of them around, Nick. Some are prisoners of conscience, Some leave promising careers because the employment is not ethical. Some miss school classes to bring attention to the plight of the environment.Many others are obscure people one never hears about.


And again he said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened.”

— Luke 13:20–21,

[Nick_A]

Simone is one of these rare people who invite me to reason as a human being and not as part of a conditioned collective regardless of the growls it may arouse. How can I not admire them.

There are plenty of them around, Nick. Some are prisoners of conscience, Some leave promising careers because the employment is not ethical. Some miss school classes to bring attention to the plight of the environment.Many others are obscure people one never hears about.


And again he said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened.”

— Luke 13:20–21,

We are speaking of different things. You are referring to what some people do and I am referring to how to reason as a human being; the process that leads to reasoning as a human being. It takes a while for a person to verify they don't reason as a human being and this first step is rare mostly because we believe we do reason as human beings. To make matters worse progressive education will do its best to assure a student will remain ignorant of the process of what it means to reason as a human being. This ignorance assures the Great Beast will remain as it is

[RCSaunders]

In short, the only possible explanation for ontic Free Will is that it was given to man, and only to man, by God.

First of all, the term, "free will," is problematic because it is loaded with religious conotation and a false assumption that free will means able to choose or do just anything. The correct term ought to be volition and the right definition of that word is: "the human necessity and ability to consciously choose everything one does, including everything one thinks and everything one does overtly." (It does not include biological functions, the behavior of the autonomic nervous system, or reflexes.)

Secondly, volition is a perfectly natural attribute of human consciousness as a living organism. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about volition. All human action is initiated by conscious choice.

[Skepdick]

In short, the only possible explanation for ontic Free Will is that it was given to man, and only to man, by God.

First of all, the term, "free will," is problematic because it is loaded with religious conotation and a false assumption that free will means able to choose or do just anything. The correct term ought to be volition and the right definition of that word is: "the human necessity and ability to consciously choose everything one does, including everything one thinks and everything one does overtly." (It does not include biological functions, the behavior of the autonomic nervous system, or reflexes.)

Secondly, volition is a perfectly natural attribute of human consciousness as a living organism. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about volition. All human action is initiated by conscious choice.

What you are describing sounds like the Compatibilist view on free will (which is the one I subscribe to)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibi ... _free_will

[Belinda]

Volition is a word that means ability to choose. E.g." I stopped buying pig products of my own volition".

The causes of my no longer buying pig products adequately explain my choice with no need for any add-on such as voliition or 'Free Will'.

A pig if hungry enough will eat pig products. Any pig has a small range of choices because it is a pig, not because it lacks some supernatural quality some call 'volition'.