Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

[Skepdick]

Two way street: you declarin' personhood only a legal privilege, just words.

Exactly! You can wipe your ass with the constitution or any law for all I care.

Which is why I also said this:

It's not about the declaration either - the declaration is also just words. Words on paper.

It's about people willing to honour the intended meaning of those words.

People who actually put their ass on the line to uphold those words, not just for themselves but for everyone.

That's what society's legal apparatus is supposed to do.

[henry quirk]

"People who actually put their ass on the line to uphold those words. That's what society does."

No, that's what individuals do. Individuals, alone; individuals, in concert.

By definition, society homogenizes. Society is not your friend. Society (the subsumed, the domesticated, the rank & file) defends itself, not individuals.

It's an anthill. You're defending an anthill.

Good drone.

[Skepdick]

No, that's what individuals do. Individuals, alone; individuals, in concert.

Yes, Henry. That's what a society is. A collection of individuals acting with common purpose and mutual benefit.

By definition, society homogenizes. Society is not your friend.

A functional society is your friend. A dysfunctional society isn't.

If a homogenous society is bad, then I you better root for diversity, no? Like a lefty, or something.

Society (the subsumed, the domesticated, the rank & file) defends itself, not individuals.

You benefit by osmosis. Science, medicine, schools, public transport, trade. This internet thing! Guns (bet you can't invent one yourself).

It's an anthill. You're defending an anthill.

Good drone.

I am defending that which benefits my selfish, individual long-term interests. Liberty, prosperity and survival. The bakery is nice too.

Apparently, a whole lot of individuals want this liberty, prosperity and survival thing. Imagine that?

[henry quirk]

"I am defending that which benefits my selfish, individual long-term interests. Liberty, prosperity and survival."

Me too.

-----

From up-thread, a framework for a civilization (you can keep society).

The individual owns himself.

The individual has a right to his life, liberty, and property.

The individual's life liberty, or property is only forfeit (in part or in whole) when he willingly, knowingly, deprives (in part or in whole) another of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

*

Some individuals can't self-defend or can't self-defend across all circumstances, so instruments are used to offer defense and compensation:

A sensible, minimal court of last resort.

A sensible, minimal constabulary.

A sensible, minimal, border-stationed military.

A militia to rule the other three (the first three are employees; when they look to dis-embed themselves from that subordinate position, the militia - every other armed person in the minarchy - is empowered to put them down).

-----

I'm goin' have supper with the 13 year old.

[Skepdick]

The individual has a right to his life, liberty, and property.

How does the individual ensure this right, if a gang of 20 chaps shows up at your ranch and insists that it's no longer yours?

You might end up forming a bigger gang. And call it "Police" or something.

Oh look... that's EXACTLY what you are proposing.

Some individuals can't self-defend or can't self-defend across all circumstances, so instruments are used to offer defense and compensation:

A sensible, minimal court of last resort.

A sensible, minimal constabulary.

A sensible, minimal, border-stationed military.

A militia to rule the other three (the first three are employees; when they look to dis-embed themselves from that subordinate position, the militia - every other armed person in the minarchy - is empowered to put them down).[/b]

Some individuals can't be doctors for themselves, so we might decide to have some sensible healthcare system.
Some individuals can't be school teachers for their children, so we might decide to have some sensible education system.
Some individuals (policemen, soldiers, doctors, teachers) can't afford to be farmers to feed themselves, so we might decide to have some sensible logistics in place to feed those people.

And step by step your "individualism" scales up to a society which has thousands of institutions.

Which happens to be - exactly what we have today.

[henry quirk]

Some individuals can't be doctors for themselves...
Some individuals can't be school teachers for their children...
Some individuals...can't afford to be farmers to feed themselves...

We (can) encourage free men and women to choose their own careers, which includes doctors, teachers, constables, etc., and we (can) encourage these folks to trade their services (products) on the open market.

Free enterprise.

#

"And step by step your "individualism" scales up to a society which has thousands of institutions."

No, my minarchy overflows with thousands of competing businesses.

#

"Which happens to be - exactly what we have today (institutions)."

A friggin' shame, ain't it?

[FlashDangerpants]

Some individuals can't be doctors for themselves...
Some individuals can't be school teachers for their children...
Some individuals...can't afford to be farmers to feed themselves...

We (can) encourage free men and women to choose their own careers, which includes doctors, teachers, constables, etc., and we (can) encourage these folks to trade their services (products) on the open market.

Free enterprise.

How free is that enterprise? Is anyone who walks into a costume shop and buys a white coat entitled to practice medicine, or do they have to go through some nanny state edumacashunal process and then register with some sort of closed shop trade association in order to prevent unnecessary deaths?

Does the night watchman state send you to the clink when you first impersonate a medical professional, or does it wait till you have accumulated a certain number of verified kills, or is this just a buyer beware situation all the way down?

[henry quirk]

As long as it's honest, the enterprise is utterly free.

If Dr. Joe claims to have education and skills he lacks, if he's peddling services falsely, he's potentially willingly, knowingly, depriving (in part or in whole) another of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

If Sam, the patient, doesn't care that Joe isn't a doctor, or doesn't care that Joe claims an education and skills he lacks, then that's Sam's business. If he does care: the courts await. As for punishment: depends on the extent of injury. Jail, compensation, tar & feathers, the public square pillory, the possibilities are endless.

So: yeah, there's a large element of buyer beware/buyer choose wisely and seller beware/seller sell wisely in there.

[FlashDangerpants]

If Dr. Joe claims to have education and skills he lacks, if he's peddling services falsely, he's potentially willingly, knowingly, depriving (in part or in whole) another of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

If Sam, the patient, doesn't care that Joe isn't a doctor, or doesn't care that Joe claims an education and skills he lacks, then that's Sam's business. If he does care: the courts await.

So: yeah, there's a large element of buyer beware/buyer choose wisely in there.

So we deal with Dr Joe before or after he kills people?

How is this education validated anyway? There is an obvious incentive there for medial schools to offer cheap medical degrees with lower standards, and then there is an incentive to undercut those cheap degrees with something even cheaper. Where do you intervene in this to ensure that medical degrees aren't just a multiple choice quiz on a web site?

Or you can allow businesses to take over licensing of doctors I suppose. They form a club with a copyright (agressively enforced through the night watchman court system). Then doctors can put a little notice in their window saying which corporate sponsor they are signed up with. Ultimately with similar abuses, not least all those lawsuits it would inspire are probably going to be filed by people just pretending to be lawyers.

[Skepdick]

Ultimately with similar abuses, not least all those lawsuits it would inspire are probably going to be filed by people just pretending to be lawyers.

And I am sure the matter shall be arbitrated by people pretending to be judges/magistrates.

Could you imagine the competition between private courts? Commoditised justice! Court sides with highest bidder?

[henry quirk]

"So we deal with Dr Joe before or after he kills people?"

Innocent till proven guilty.

#

"How is this education validated anyway? There is an obvious incentive there for medial schools to offer cheap medical degrees with lower standards, and then there is an incentive to undercut those cheap degrees with something even cheaper. Where do you intervene in this to ensure that medical degrees aren't just a multiple choice quiz on a web site?"

I don't. The open market does. Bad services/products lands one in court and mebbe wearing tar; good services/products is rewarded with jingly gold and repeat business.

[henry quirk]

Ultimately with similar abuses, not least all those lawsuits it would inspire are probably going to be filed by people just pretending to be lawyers.

And I am sure the matter shall be arbitrated by people pretending to be judges/magistrates.

Could you imagine the competition between private courts? Commoditised justice! Court sides with highest bidder?

Talkin' out yer ass, as ususl.

I'm talkin' about minarchy, not ancap.

[henry quirk]

Or you can allow businesses to take over licensing of doctors I suppose. They form a club with a copyright (agressively enforced through the night watchman court system). Then doctors can put a little notice in their window saying which corporate sponsor they are signed up with. Ultimately with similar abuses, not least all those lawsuits it would inspire are probably going to be filed by people just pretending to be lawyers.

There's no allow, only encourage. People will organize as they like with the like-minded, or go it alone as they can. Minarchy is a big framework. Commies are as welcome as capitalists. Adhere to...

The individual owns himself.

The individual's life liberty, or property is only forfeit (in part or in whole) when he willingly, knowingly, deprives (in part or in whole) another of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

...and understand the consequences when you don't, and anything goes.

[Nick_A]

Kant claimed that our deontological duties towards each other must be based on reason. Simone Weil experienced that reason alone is not sufficient to deal with the hypocrisy of the human condition so in order for a free society to sustain itself it must invite the help of grace. She wrote:

Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.

Secular humanism which must deny grace will insist on eliminating religious help for a person to open to the help of grace and instead emphasize reason through education leading to an evolved glorious future for our species.

It is easy for us to argue about rights but in the process it is easy to forget that denial of the help of grace acquired through the egoistic glorification of secular reason makes it impossible to actualize some worthwhile goals which further freedom. Will our culture ever evolve to understand the necessity for grace in order for a free society to sustain itself? I don’t know. It does seem that statist slavery will eventually rule until the next revolution. I do know that Man left to his own devices will act in ways resulting in the opposite of deontological ethics. It is the norm for human hypocrisy

So IMO those who support the necessity for the essential religious influence to sustain a free society with the intent of receiving the help of grace must strive to keep the essence of religion alive in modern secular society. How to do it is an important question. Arguing about rights is one thing and appreciating the role of voluntary obligations with the help of grace necessary to make them possible for a free people is another.

[Skepdick]

People will organize as they like with the like-minded, or go it alone as they can....

Henry, that's exactly what people do. We even gave this freedom a name: Freedom of Association

Do you think something other than people organised society the way it is?

The individual owns himself.

Methinks your objection boils down to "I don't like the way the individuals who own themselves organised themselves"