Resolving Paradoxes

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: two apples a day will keep a paradox away

Post by henry quirk »

Included Middle is an idea proposed by Stéphane Lupasco (in The Principle of Antagonism and the Logic of Energy in 1951), further developed by Joseph E. Brenner and Basarab Nicolescu, and also supported by Werner Heisenberg. The notion pertains to physics and quantum mechanics, and may have wider application in other domains such as information theory and computing, epistemology, and theories of consciousness. The Included Middle is a theory proposing that logic has a three-part structure. The three parts are the positions of asserting something, the negation of this assertion, and a third position that is neither or both. Lupasco labeled these states A, not-A, and T. The Included Middle stands in opposition to classical logic stemming from Aristotle. In classical logic, the Principle of Non-contradiction specifically proposes an Excluded Middle, that no middle position exists, tertium non datur (there is no third option). In traditional logic, for any proposition, either that proposition is true, or its negation is true (there is either A or not-A). While this could be true for circumscribed domains that contain only A and not-A, there may also be a larger position not captured by these two claims, and that is articulated by the Included Middle................................
This...

The three parts are the positions of asserting something, the negation of this assertion, and a third position that is neither or both.

...makes no sense to me.

I say your pants are on fire (I assert sumthin').

You say your pants are not on fire, and you show me your non-burning pants (you negated my assertion).

Where the hell does a third position come into play?

And: color me stupid but I don't see what any of this has to do with paradoxes.
Last edited by henry quirk on Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:33 amSo why do you think "real", "realness" and "reality" are meaningful things?
I got a hungry lion to my left and an angry unicorn to my right: which deserves my utmost attention?

The lion (cuz unicorns aren't real).

Understand?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: two apples a day will keep a paradox away

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:47 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:41 am Here's a challenge to you, or anyone: throw your most devious paradox my way and I'll dismantle it.

That's dismantle, not resolve.
Start with the liar's paradox.

Every human is a liar. True or false?
I am lying: about what?

Every human being is capable of lying, but not every human lies, so: false.

...or...

Every human is capable of lying, and probably has lied, so: true

Wordplay. Fun, mebbe; brain twisting, nope.
Skepdick
Posts: 16022
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:44 pm I got a hungry lion to my left and an angry unicorn to my right: which deserves my utmost attention?
The one that's charging towards you?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:44 pm The lion (cuz unicorns aren't real).
If unicorns aren't "real" then why is there one to your right?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:44 pm Understand?
No. I don't. Seeing is believing.

Why do you see a lion and say that it's "real", but when you see a unicorn you say that it's "not real".

That seems inconsistent.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:44 pm I am lying: about what?
You are probably lying about the lion and and the unicorn. There are no lions in the USA, nor unicorns on Earth.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

There are no lions in the USA, nor unicorns on Earth.
Yes, there are...

...and...

...that's why I care about what's real.
Skepdick
Posts: 16022
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:51 pm
There are no lions in the USA, nor unicorns on Earth.
Yes, there are...

...and...

...that's why I care about what's real.
You are kind of missing the point.

Why is the lion (to your left) "real", but the unicorn (to your right) "not real"?

You are observing both of them with your own eyes - why are you classifying their "realness" differently?
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:57 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:51 pm
There are no lions in the USA, nor unicorns on Earth.
Yes, there are...

...and...

...that's why I care about what's real.
You are kind of missing the point.

Why is the lion (to your left) "real", but the unicorn (to your right) "not real"?

You are observing both of them with your own eyes - why are you classifying their "realness" differently?
The unicorn is a drawing in a kid's book (or is a stuffed toy, or is a cgi projection or...).

Havin' to spell it out to you... :(

Anyway: any more paradoxes to share?
Skepdick
Posts: 16022
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:05 pm The unicorn is a drawing in a kid's book.
So the unicorn is on the right hand-side of the book and the lion is on the left hand-side of the book?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:05 pm Anyway: any more paradoxes to share?
I have plenty, but you haven't even resolved the first one.

Giving up so easily?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:07 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:05 pm The unicorn is a drawing in a kid's book.
So the unicorn is on the right hand-side of the book and the lion is on the left hand-side of the book?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:05 pm Anyway: any more paradoxes to share?
I have plenty, but you haven't even resolved the first one.

Giving up so easily?
I said I'd dismantle, not resolve.

Did it.

Any more?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

c'mon, guy

I ain't got all day
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

time's up
Walker
Posts: 16383
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by Walker »

Arising_uk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:49 pmWell the quote from Rand(if it is one?) ...
Quotation mark(s) indicate a quotation.
No quotation marks, no quotation.

“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”
Ayn Rand (speaking through a literary character)
- Atlas Shrugged

Rely on the meaning, not on the words.
- From the Four Reliances Sutra
Walker
Posts: 16383
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by Walker »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:13 pm Any more?
“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”

Jesus
- Matthew 16:25
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Re: Resolving Paradoxes

Post by henry quirk »

Walker wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:13 pm Any more?
“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”

Jesus
- Matthew 16:25
Not seein' this as a paradox.

My interpretation: if a man clings to his fallen existence, then he forgoes salvation; but the man who forsakes his fallen existence and embraces Christ enters into (finds) his true life.

Again: I'm not seein' a paradox here.

Mebbe, I just can't recognize one. As I say: it's all wordplay and semantic tricksiness.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: two apples a day will keep a paradox away

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:40 pm
Included Middle is an idea proposed by Stéphane Lupasco (in The Principle of Antagonism and the Logic of Energy in 1951), further developed by Joseph E. Brenner and Basarab Nicolescu, and also supported by Werner Heisenberg. The notion pertains to physics and quantum mechanics, and may have wider application in other domains such as information theory and computing, epistemology, and theories of consciousness. The Included Middle is a theory proposing that logic has a three-part structure. The three parts are the positions of asserting something, the negation of this assertion, and a third position that is neither or both. Lupasco labeled these states A, not-A, and T. The Included Middle stands in opposition to classical logic stemming from Aristotle. In classical logic, the Principle of Non-contradiction specifically proposes an Excluded Middle, that no middle position exists, tertium non datur (there is no third option). In traditional logic, for any proposition, either that proposition is true, or its negation is true (there is either A or not-A). While this could be true for circumscribed domains that contain only A and not-A, there may also be a larger position not captured by these two claims, and that is articulated by the Included Middle................................
This...

The three parts are the positions of asserting something, the negation of this assertion, and a third position that is neither or both.

...makes no sense to me.

I say your pants are on fire (I assert sumthin').

You say your pants are not on fire, and you show me your non-burning pants (you negated my assertion).

Where the hell does a third position come into play?

And: color me stupid but I don't see what any of this has to do with paradoxes.
It isn't a matter of being stupid Henry. You are just used to reasoning from basic dualism as is the norm in the world which limits itself to one level of reality. The Law of non contradiction asserts that your pants cannot be both on fire and not on fire. The Law of the Included Middle states that their potentials can simultaneously exist at a higher level of reality.

The Liar's Paradox asserts that when a person calls themselves a liar they can be either lying or telling the truth. The Law of the Included Middle shows how they can both be included within a higher level of reality. It reveals the limitations of dualism.

The world isn't ready for this yet since secularism is dependent upon dualism. Once recognition of levels of reality becomes more popular, opening to a higher level of reality won't be as shocking s it is now. The link concludes with:
Included Middle is a concept already deployed in a variety of scientific domains and could benefit from a wider application in being promoted to “meme” status. This is because beyond its uses in science, Included Middle is a model for thinking. The Included Middle is a conceptual model that overcomes dualism and opens a frame that is complex and multi-dimensional, not merely one of binary elements and simple linear causality. We have now come to comprehend and address our world as one that is complex as opposed to basic, and formal tools that support this investigation are crucial. The Included Middle helps to expose how our thinking process unfolds. When attempting to grasp anything new, a basic “A, not-A” logic could be the first step in understanding the situation. However, the idea is then to progress to the next step which is another level of thinking that holds both A and not-A. The Included Middle is a more robust model that has properties of both determinacy and indeterminacy, the universal and the particular, the part and the whole, and actuality and possibility. The Included Middle is a position of greater complexity and possibility for addressing any situation. Conceiving of a third space that holds two apparent contradictions of a problem is what the Included Middle might bring to contemporary challenges in consciousness, artificial intelligence, disease pathologies, and unified theories in physics and cosmology.
Life is a paradox. What are we? How is it that we say one thing and do another? The Law of the included Middle allows us to appreciate the human condition and why this apparent absurdity is actually lawfully normal.

Yes, at a higher level of reality your pants can be both on fire and not on fire.
Locked