Hi
AS, I think you, the devil and Goethe will get on hand-in-glove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust
not that I've read it yet, but there are modern adaptations of the story in film etc.....aren't there Richard ?
Gotta love Richard's slick and slippery Zunge - mehr bitte !
and so it goes...
M.
Goethe's Italian Journey
-
Richard Baron
- Posts: 204
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Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Zunge = tongue, Fotze = pussy, and -chen is a diminuative ending, so little tongue and little pussy.artisticsolution wrote:Please help with the translation on the words zungelchen and fotzchen because I couldn't find a direct translation.
The lines come from the Venetian epigrams, so Venice rather than Rome, I think. I do not know whether Goethe had in mind his relationship to La Serenissima, as well as to one (perhaps an imaginary one) of its inhabitants. His poems are like the city's carnival masks. We are free to imagine what may lie behind them. At least we can be confident that it was not Bettina von Arnim, as she would still have been a bit young in the 1780s.artisticsolution wrote:Is Goethe talking about Rome or an actual woman? Did Goethe mean to imply she/Rome doesn't like men, doesn't need a man, or something else? Is she/Rome emotionally distant or delightfully self assured? Does he find this appealing the way you would experience a thing like a city or is it more like deep sexual desire for another?
-
artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi Richard,
R:Zunge = tongue, Fotze = pussy, and -chen is a diminuative ending, so little tongue and little pussy.
AS: Oh, like a little nickname! How adorable!
R: We are free to imagine what may lie behind them.
AS: Well, I suppose the verse could be used for a city as well as a woman. Seems equally appropriate. If he was in love with the idea of being in love I don't think it would have mattered much.
Hi M,
From what you have read of Goethe so far, what does your womanly instinct tell you about him? I wonder if it's possible to get the whole gist of what Goethe is saying without knowing German. Do you speak German fluently M? It seems to me it would be very helpful when trying to understand Goethe. What if the translator steers you in the wrong direction?
Did you ever read 'The Little Prince"? Do you remember the part where the prince asks the pilot to draw him a picture of a sheep? Each time he draws the prince a picture, there is a problem in the literal translation of one mind to another. Finally the pilot gives up and draws the prince a crate with a hole and tells the prince that the sheep he wants is inside the crate. The prince puts his eye up to the drawing and peeks in the hole and exclaims that its the perfect sheep! To me it seems this is what Goethe is doing.
Do his words leave you more satiated in your imagination than if he were to tell you everything in a literal way? Do you like the way he teases your senses or do you want him to expose himself in an uninhibited way, leaving no question of his intentions or motives? Do you think he is delightful because he manipulates your senses much like a woman? Is it more intriguing coming from a man? Am I going to have to read the book to find out all the answers? LOL
Will you help me if I do?
R:Zunge = tongue, Fotze = pussy, and -chen is a diminuative ending, so little tongue and little pussy.
AS: Oh, like a little nickname! How adorable!
R: We are free to imagine what may lie behind them.
AS: Well, I suppose the verse could be used for a city as well as a woman. Seems equally appropriate. If he was in love with the idea of being in love I don't think it would have mattered much.
Hi M,
From what you have read of Goethe so far, what does your womanly instinct tell you about him? I wonder if it's possible to get the whole gist of what Goethe is saying without knowing German. Do you speak German fluently M? It seems to me it would be very helpful when trying to understand Goethe. What if the translator steers you in the wrong direction?
Did you ever read 'The Little Prince"? Do you remember the part where the prince asks the pilot to draw him a picture of a sheep? Each time he draws the prince a picture, there is a problem in the literal translation of one mind to another. Finally the pilot gives up and draws the prince a crate with a hole and tells the prince that the sheep he wants is inside the crate. The prince puts his eye up to the drawing and peeks in the hole and exclaims that its the perfect sheep! To me it seems this is what Goethe is doing.
Do his words leave you more satiated in your imagination than if he were to tell you everything in a literal way? Do you like the way he teases your senses or do you want him to expose himself in an uninhibited way, leaving no question of his intentions or motives? Do you think he is delightful because he manipulates your senses much like a woman? Is it more intriguing coming from a man? Am I going to have to read the book to find out all the answers? LOL
Will you help me if I do?
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi
AS : From what you have read of Goethe so far, what does your womanly instinct tell you about him? I wonder if it's possible to get the whole gist of what Goethe is saying without knowing German. Do you speak German fluently M? It seems to me it would be very helpful when trying to understand Goethe. What if the translator steers you in the wrong direction?
M: My mind is not yet in gear - sipping early morning cuppa T. So....hmmm.... 'womanly' instinct as opposed to 'instinct' ? ; reading between the lines as oppposed to dissection of phrases ? Whatever. My impression so far. He has felt confined in Germany, now he is giving himself time and space. Lonely ( alone ? ) yet sociable : the book is in diary form, drawn from letters to his friends. Interested in the physical elements, Goethe has theories about almost everything and a sensibility of 'atmosphere' and its lack : looking at the amphitheatre in Verona - the first grand ancient monument he has seen - Goethe admired how well it had been preserved.....and yet...'...grand as it was, I was looking at nothing....it ought not to have been empty but packed with human beings...' p52.
I know German only from schooldays : I agree that every translation may not capture the exact meaning but as long as I get a flavour - at this stage I am not concerned.
AS : Did you ever read 'The Little Prince"? Do you remember the part where the prince asks the pilot to draw him a picture of a sheep? Each time he draws the prince a picture, there is a problem in the literal translation of one mind to another. Finally the pilot gives up and draws the prince a crate with a hole and tells the prince that the sheep he wants is inside the crate. The prince puts his eye up to the drawing and peeks in the hole and exclaims that its the perfect sheep! To me it seems this is what Goethe is doing.
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS : Do his words leave you more satiated in your imagination than if he were to tell you everything in a literal way? Do you like the way he teases your senses or do you want him to expose himself in an uninhibited way, leaving no question of his intentions or motives? Do you think he is delightful because he manipulates your senses much like a woman? Is it more intriguing coming from a man? Am I going to have to read the book to find out all the answers? LOL
M: You ask a lot of questions AS !?! It seems that I am a bit of a voyeur : I like to read of others experiences in diary form. I wonder if the film version ( is there one ? ) would be as much a hit as that of Bridget Jones.
I think you are already tempted to read the book : I would love to have your company and any other passing travellers ! I am not too far ahead - not yet reached Venice
M.
AS : From what you have read of Goethe so far, what does your womanly instinct tell you about him? I wonder if it's possible to get the whole gist of what Goethe is saying without knowing German. Do you speak German fluently M? It seems to me it would be very helpful when trying to understand Goethe. What if the translator steers you in the wrong direction?
M: My mind is not yet in gear - sipping early morning cuppa T. So....hmmm.... 'womanly' instinct as opposed to 'instinct' ? ; reading between the lines as oppposed to dissection of phrases ? Whatever. My impression so far. He has felt confined in Germany, now he is giving himself time and space. Lonely ( alone ? ) yet sociable : the book is in diary form, drawn from letters to his friends. Interested in the physical elements, Goethe has theories about almost everything and a sensibility of 'atmosphere' and its lack : looking at the amphitheatre in Verona - the first grand ancient monument he has seen - Goethe admired how well it had been preserved.....and yet...'...grand as it was, I was looking at nothing....it ought not to have been empty but packed with human beings...' p52.
I know German only from schooldays : I agree that every translation may not capture the exact meaning but as long as I get a flavour - at this stage I am not concerned.
AS : Did you ever read 'The Little Prince"? Do you remember the part where the prince asks the pilot to draw him a picture of a sheep? Each time he draws the prince a picture, there is a problem in the literal translation of one mind to another. Finally the pilot gives up and draws the prince a crate with a hole and tells the prince that the sheep he wants is inside the crate. The prince puts his eye up to the drawing and peeks in the hole and exclaims that its the perfect sheep! To me it seems this is what Goethe is doing.
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS : Do his words leave you more satiated in your imagination than if he were to tell you everything in a literal way? Do you like the way he teases your senses or do you want him to expose himself in an uninhibited way, leaving no question of his intentions or motives? Do you think he is delightful because he manipulates your senses much like a woman? Is it more intriguing coming from a man? Am I going to have to read the book to find out all the answers? LOL
M: You ask a lot of questions AS !?! It seems that I am a bit of a voyeur : I like to read of others experiences in diary form. I wonder if the film version ( is there one ? ) would be as much a hit as that of Bridget Jones.
I think you are already tempted to read the book : I would love to have your company and any other passing travellers ! I am not too far ahead - not yet reached Venice
M.
-
artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi,
M: My mind is not yet in gear - sipping early morning cuppa T. So....hmmm.... 'womanly' instinct as opposed to 'instinct' ? ; reading between the lines as oppposed to dissection of phrases ? Whatever.
AS: Oh no M...Not whatever. What is. This is what I sense you admire so much in Goethe. Is his writing deliberately ambiguous? As Richard says, "We are free to imagine what may lie behind them." Isn't it this type of adventure and folly you seek when you read Goethe? He set out to draw us a picture that would stir our senses and make us get a flavor of who he was without actually saying so literally. Richard says:
"The occasion was a chance encounter with the great man on a bookshelf. The aptness just seemed obvious. One needs a personal relationship with a city to make the journey worthwhile. Goethe draws our attention to the fact that it is a little mysterious, but not wholly so, how one can have a personal relationship with old stones."
I love how Richard put this, about having a "relationship with old stones." Aren't you doing the same when you read Goethe? Goethe is "old stones" in the sense that he is not alive to tell you what he meant by a certain passages. Is he making himself out to be "old stones' for you in order that you might have your own ideas, your own adventure? I think he is allowing you to see what you want to see...much like the pilot does in 'The Little Prince" when he draws the crate that hides the shape of the sheep in order that the little prince should see what he wants. Please don't say 'whatever', your journey is as important to me as Goethe's is to you. I hope this makes sense...it is very difficult for me to relate...I can't say it any clearer than Richard did.
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS: http://home.pacific.net.hk/~rebylee/tex ... tents.html
M please read "The Little Prince." It's a quick read. It is a story about a journey as well. It gives insight to many types of personalities, it talks about love, both shallow and deep, for people and places and things. It speaks of impatience, being demanding, being unreasonable, etc and how we have empathy and honor in spite of who we are. It is also a story about good vs. evil and how even evil can end up being most merciful at times....
M:I think you are already tempted to read the book : I would love to have your company and any other passing travellers ! I am not too far ahead - not yet reached Venice
AS: I will try to get it before I go out of town Sunday. I have been on a waiting list for years for this class by a master sculptor. A space finally became available and I jumped on it! I haven't sculpted in years...I am a little nervous to say the least...but I will do what I always do...jump in head first without checking the depth of the pool! Plus there will be a live model! Now how much fun does that sound?! Do you think I should recite Richard's translation of Goethe to the her/him and the class? Just to make sure they are on the same page and it really turns into an adventure? LOL
M: My mind is not yet in gear - sipping early morning cuppa T. So....hmmm.... 'womanly' instinct as opposed to 'instinct' ? ; reading between the lines as oppposed to dissection of phrases ? Whatever.
AS: Oh no M...Not whatever. What is. This is what I sense you admire so much in Goethe. Is his writing deliberately ambiguous? As Richard says, "We are free to imagine what may lie behind them." Isn't it this type of adventure and folly you seek when you read Goethe? He set out to draw us a picture that would stir our senses and make us get a flavor of who he was without actually saying so literally. Richard says:
"The occasion was a chance encounter with the great man on a bookshelf. The aptness just seemed obvious. One needs a personal relationship with a city to make the journey worthwhile. Goethe draws our attention to the fact that it is a little mysterious, but not wholly so, how one can have a personal relationship with old stones."
I love how Richard put this, about having a "relationship with old stones." Aren't you doing the same when you read Goethe? Goethe is "old stones" in the sense that he is not alive to tell you what he meant by a certain passages. Is he making himself out to be "old stones' for you in order that you might have your own ideas, your own adventure? I think he is allowing you to see what you want to see...much like the pilot does in 'The Little Prince" when he draws the crate that hides the shape of the sheep in order that the little prince should see what he wants. Please don't say 'whatever', your journey is as important to me as Goethe's is to you. I hope this makes sense...it is very difficult for me to relate...I can't say it any clearer than Richard did.
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS: http://home.pacific.net.hk/~rebylee/tex ... tents.html
M please read "The Little Prince." It's a quick read. It is a story about a journey as well. It gives insight to many types of personalities, it talks about love, both shallow and deep, for people and places and things. It speaks of impatience, being demanding, being unreasonable, etc and how we have empathy and honor in spite of who we are. It is also a story about good vs. evil and how even evil can end up being most merciful at times....
M:I think you are already tempted to read the book : I would love to have your company and any other passing travellers ! I am not too far ahead - not yet reached Venice
AS: I will try to get it before I go out of town Sunday. I have been on a waiting list for years for this class by a master sculptor. A space finally became available and I jumped on it! I haven't sculpted in years...I am a little nervous to say the least...but I will do what I always do...jump in head first without checking the depth of the pool! Plus there will be a live model! Now how much fun does that sound?! Do you think I should recite Richard's translation of Goethe to the her/him and the class? Just to make sure they are on the same page and it really turns into an adventure? LOL
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi
AS: Oh no M...Not whatever. What is.
M: 'What is' ; whatever.
AS : This is what I sense you admire so much in Goethe. Is his writing deliberately ambiguous?
M: I'm not sure myself what it is in Goethe I admire : I'm still at the honeymoon stage. I only know of the little I've read in 'Italian Journey' - so far it seems pretty straighforward.- unlike his poetry perhaps.
AS: As Richard says, "We are free to imagine what may lie behind them." Isn't it this type of adventure and folly you seek when you read Goethe?
M: You ask very deep questions AS - I only seek enjoyment in discovery. {as far as I am aware }
AS: He set out to draw us a picture that would stir our senses and make us get a flavor of who he was without actually saying so literally.
M: are you talking about the poetry ?
AS : Richard says:
"The occasion was a chance encounter with the great man on a bookshelf. The aptness just seemed obvious. One needs a personal relationship with a city to make the journey worthwhile. Goethe draws our attention to the fact that it is a little mysterious, but not wholly so, how one can have a personal relationship with old stones."
I love how Richard put this, about having a "relationship with old stones." Aren't you doing the same when you read Goethe? Goethe is "old stones" in the sense that he is not alive to tell you what he meant by a certain passages.
M: Oh, yikes AS - I think Richard needs to explain this...
AS : Is he making himself out to be "old stones' for you in order that you might have your own ideas, your own adventure? I think he is allowing you to see what you want to see...
M: I don't get that impression.
AS: much like the pilot does in 'The Little Prince" when he draws the crate that hides the shape of the sheep in order that the little prince should see what he wants. Please don't say 'whatever',
M: my 'whatever' was my method of continuing without necessarily pin-pointing what you wanted from me ie 'womanly'.
AS: your journey is as important to me as Goethe's is to you. I hope this makes sense...it is very difficult for me to relate...I can't say it any clearer than Richard did.
M: you want a relationship with 'old stones' ? Perhaps old bones....
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS: http://home.pacific.net.hk/~rebylee/tex ... tents.html
M please read "The Little Prince." It's a quick read. It is a story about a journey as well. It gives insight to many types of personalities, it talks about love, both shallow and deep, for people and places and things. It speaks of impatience, being demanding, being unreasonable, etc and how we have empathy and honor in spite of who we are. It is also a story about good vs. evil and how even evil can end up being most merciful at times....
M: OK, will do....but so much to read, so little time.....with struggling eyes....
AS: I will try to get it before I go out of town Sunday. I have been on a waiting list for years for this class by a master sculptor. A space finally became available and I jumped on it! I haven't sculpted in years...I am a little nervous to say the least...but I will do what I always do...jump in head first without checking the depth of the pool!
M: Enjoy the leap ! Isn't that what Goethe did - just jumped on the bus....
AS: Plus there will be a live model! Now how much fun does that sound?! Do you think I should recite Richard's translation of Goethe to the her/him and the class?
M: Goosebumps spring to mind....amongst other things.
Have fun !
AS: Oh no M...Not whatever. What is.
M: 'What is' ; whatever.
AS : This is what I sense you admire so much in Goethe. Is his writing deliberately ambiguous?
M: I'm not sure myself what it is in Goethe I admire : I'm still at the honeymoon stage. I only know of the little I've read in 'Italian Journey' - so far it seems pretty straighforward.- unlike his poetry perhaps.
AS: As Richard says, "We are free to imagine what may lie behind them." Isn't it this type of adventure and folly you seek when you read Goethe?
M: You ask very deep questions AS - I only seek enjoyment in discovery. {as far as I am aware }
AS: He set out to draw us a picture that would stir our senses and make us get a flavor of who he was without actually saying so literally.
M: are you talking about the poetry ?
AS : Richard says:
"The occasion was a chance encounter with the great man on a bookshelf. The aptness just seemed obvious. One needs a personal relationship with a city to make the journey worthwhile. Goethe draws our attention to the fact that it is a little mysterious, but not wholly so, how one can have a personal relationship with old stones."
I love how Richard put this, about having a "relationship with old stones." Aren't you doing the same when you read Goethe? Goethe is "old stones" in the sense that he is not alive to tell you what he meant by a certain passages.
M: Oh, yikes AS - I think Richard needs to explain this...
AS : Is he making himself out to be "old stones' for you in order that you might have your own ideas, your own adventure? I think he is allowing you to see what you want to see...
M: I don't get that impression.
AS: much like the pilot does in 'The Little Prince" when he draws the crate that hides the shape of the sheep in order that the little prince should see what he wants. Please don't say 'whatever',
M: my 'whatever' was my method of continuing without necessarily pin-pointing what you wanted from me ie 'womanly'.
AS: your journey is as important to me as Goethe's is to you. I hope this makes sense...it is very difficult for me to relate...I can't say it any clearer than Richard did.
M: you want a relationship with 'old stones' ? Perhaps old bones....
M: I can't recall reading ' The Little Prince' . I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last sentence ?
AS: http://home.pacific.net.hk/~rebylee/tex ... tents.html
M please read "The Little Prince." It's a quick read. It is a story about a journey as well. It gives insight to many types of personalities, it talks about love, both shallow and deep, for people and places and things. It speaks of impatience, being demanding, being unreasonable, etc and how we have empathy and honor in spite of who we are. It is also a story about good vs. evil and how even evil can end up being most merciful at times....
M: OK, will do....but so much to read, so little time.....with struggling eyes....
AS: I will try to get it before I go out of town Sunday. I have been on a waiting list for years for this class by a master sculptor. A space finally became available and I jumped on it! I haven't sculpted in years...I am a little nervous to say the least...but I will do what I always do...jump in head first without checking the depth of the pool!
M: Enjoy the leap ! Isn't that what Goethe did - just jumped on the bus....
AS: Plus there will be a live model! Now how much fun does that sound?! Do you think I should recite Richard's translation of Goethe to the her/him and the class?
M: Goosebumps spring to mind....amongst other things.
Have fun !
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hello Richard
Thank you for the Goethean glimpses.
I wonder that AS, or myself, did not jump on your : 'As to mind-reading, Goethe knew better than most how to read minds, bodies and their follies'. What makes you say so ?
And then how you slipped in little Bettina. Such references prompted thoughts of Goethe's possible attraction to children.
Futher exploration turned up : Bettina's ' Goethe's Correspondence with a Child' - a fascinating but lengthy e-text with a foreword by Bruce G Charlton.
Here, it is explained that the 'nymphet scenario', which seems sinister now, highlights the change in social mores. Apparently, Bettina ( in her early twenties ) used the 'licence of a child' to maintain her independence in a strong patriarchal world so that a scandal would be avoided. { I'm not sure about this }
http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/preface-bettina.html
Charlton calls for a new edition of the Correspondence. Now that would be quite the challenge, given its mix of fact and fiction. But 'psychological truthfulness' ?
Goethe seems quite the tease - plucking the plump, juicy grapes and thinking of the 'child'....
Hmmmm.
Thank you for the Goethean glimpses.
I wonder that AS, or myself, did not jump on your : 'As to mind-reading, Goethe knew better than most how to read minds, bodies and their follies'. What makes you say so ?
And then how you slipped in little Bettina. Such references prompted thoughts of Goethe's possible attraction to children.
Futher exploration turned up : Bettina's ' Goethe's Correspondence with a Child' - a fascinating but lengthy e-text with a foreword by Bruce G Charlton.
Here, it is explained that the 'nymphet scenario', which seems sinister now, highlights the change in social mores. Apparently, Bettina ( in her early twenties ) used the 'licence of a child' to maintain her independence in a strong patriarchal world so that a scandal would be avoided. { I'm not sure about this }
http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/preface-bettina.html
Charlton calls for a new edition of the Correspondence. Now that would be quite the challenge, given its mix of fact and fiction. But 'psychological truthfulness' ?
Goethe seems quite the tease - plucking the plump, juicy grapes and thinking of the 'child'....
Hmmmm.
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
A walk on the wild side
Too weird by far. Curiosity about Mr Charlton brought me full circle to the novel which ( a few years ago ) re-ignited my old flame philo : ZAMM !
http://www.moq.org/forum/BruceCharlton/ ... nance.html
I must get off this roundabout, and go see a friend...dizzily.
M.
Too weird by far. Curiosity about Mr Charlton brought me full circle to the novel which ( a few years ago ) re-ignited my old flame philo : ZAMM !
http://www.moq.org/forum/BruceCharlton/ ... nance.html
I must get off this roundabout, and go see a friend...dizzily.
M.
-
Richard Baron
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:55 am
- Contact:
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
He had the psychological insight of a Shakespeare. Dip into Faust. It is not about one guy who happens to be offered an unusual contract. It is about where we all might go, but for the grace of our need to earn a living.mhoraine wrote:I wonder that AS, or myself, did not jump on your : 'As to mind-reading, Goethe knew better than most how to read minds, bodies and their follies'. What makes you say so ?
Ich liebe den Wein,mhoraine wrote:Goethe seems quite the tease - plucking the plump, juicy grapes and thinking of the 'child'....Hmmmm.
mein Mädchen vor allen,
sie tut mir allein
am besten gefallen.
Ich bin nicht alleine
bei meinem Glas Weine,
mein Mädchen dabei:
Die Gedanken sind frei!
[Not Goethe, but around at the time]
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Die Gedanken sind Frei, wer kann sie erraten ?
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
OK. Dipped into Faust - my library copy (1976 trans. Randall Jarrell ) opened at an earmarked page :
Faust :
Welcome, sweet twilight, as you bathe this sanctuary !
Seize on my heart, sweet pain of love,
You who live thirsting on the dews of hope !
There breathes about me here the feeling
Of calm, of order, of contentment.
In this poverty, what riches ! In this cell, what bliss !
Faust Part 1 : VII Evening , p146
Faust :
Welcome, sweet twilight, as you bathe this sanctuary !
Seize on my heart, sweet pain of love,
You who live thirsting on the dews of hope !
There breathes about me here the feeling
Of calm, of order, of contentment.
In this poverty, what riches ! In this cell, what bliss !
Faust Part 1 : VII Evening , p146
-
artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M & R, I find myself very tired from a long day's drive, but also very restless anticipating the first day of my class tomorrow. I had a long time to think about Richard's statement, and googled the last exchange of german between you two . Thought about "thoughts are free" all the way here.
There is a conflict inside myself. While I value my freedom and the freedom of others, it occurred to me that I also feel a great sense of loneliness and desire to know another person as intimately as possible...if just for the sheer scientific discovery of it all. What would happen? Are 2 heads really better than one? Could we begin to see more values in the law...as in what works and what doesn't? If I could climb inside another person's mind, and look through all it's hidden files... would I find out that we have much more in common than we show the world or would I be horrified at the new insight gained.
That got me to thinking about sci fi...lol. Why do we see 'the borg' as an enemy of individualism? Why not think of individualism as an enemy of assimilation?
Let's suppose for a moment that it was individualism that was the true enemy? What if our insatiable quest to be unique and separate from the herd, was the exact thing causing all the problems in society? What if our need for individualism was responsible for all wars and insane fighting amongst each other? What if the answer to peace lay in the simple premise of understanding the mind of another? Wouldn't it make sense to assimilate? And, If individualism is what we strive for then how come we cannot be satisfied with allowing each other to be true individuals? Imagine our thoughts so free we could actually speak them without fear of retribution. After all, they are only thoughts. Right? However, most of us are reluctant to open up to one another for fear of being punished by the law or losing our privacy and individualism.
I know I am terribly tired and rambling...I apologize. Our thoughts are free....but I don't always want them to be. Sometimes I want to climb into another person's pocket and know what true intimacy is...Richard's "a relationship with old stones" has been running through my mind all day. If we can feel the inspiring comfort of intimacy with a stone...imagine if we could feel the intimacy of another's mind. I would die to experience that....I probably would never offer to go into space exploration...but I would jump at the chance to boldly go where no man has gone before...into the depth of another human's mind. Talk about an adventurous journey! Words on a page in a book that represent a fragment of what an author is thinking is chump change compared to the value and depth of actually being there to witness what is going on behind the scenes of their creative thoughts. Why do we resist?
P.S If Arising is reading this...I think he would be pleased to know I went to a Chuck Close Art exhibit today. Fantastic! The art was cool enough...but there were also the maps to his creativity for all to explore! Graphs, charts, notes, art depicting stages of development, an interactive pamphlet that allowed you to experience it for yourself...and a table of supplies as well!....it was very intimate being inside his mind and seeing the progression and how he implemented his ideas! How very generous of him to share this with the world! I loved it!
There is a conflict inside myself. While I value my freedom and the freedom of others, it occurred to me that I also feel a great sense of loneliness and desire to know another person as intimately as possible...if just for the sheer scientific discovery of it all. What would happen? Are 2 heads really better than one? Could we begin to see more values in the law...as in what works and what doesn't? If I could climb inside another person's mind, and look through all it's hidden files... would I find out that we have much more in common than we show the world or would I be horrified at the new insight gained.
That got me to thinking about sci fi...lol. Why do we see 'the borg' as an enemy of individualism? Why not think of individualism as an enemy of assimilation?
Let's suppose for a moment that it was individualism that was the true enemy? What if our insatiable quest to be unique and separate from the herd, was the exact thing causing all the problems in society? What if our need for individualism was responsible for all wars and insane fighting amongst each other? What if the answer to peace lay in the simple premise of understanding the mind of another? Wouldn't it make sense to assimilate? And, If individualism is what we strive for then how come we cannot be satisfied with allowing each other to be true individuals? Imagine our thoughts so free we could actually speak them without fear of retribution. After all, they are only thoughts. Right? However, most of us are reluctant to open up to one another for fear of being punished by the law or losing our privacy and individualism.
I know I am terribly tired and rambling...I apologize. Our thoughts are free....but I don't always want them to be. Sometimes I want to climb into another person's pocket and know what true intimacy is...Richard's "a relationship with old stones" has been running through my mind all day. If we can feel the inspiring comfort of intimacy with a stone...imagine if we could feel the intimacy of another's mind. I would die to experience that....I probably would never offer to go into space exploration...but I would jump at the chance to boldly go where no man has gone before...into the depth of another human's mind. Talk about an adventurous journey! Words on a page in a book that represent a fragment of what an author is thinking is chump change compared to the value and depth of actually being there to witness what is going on behind the scenes of their creative thoughts. Why do we resist?
P.S If Arising is reading this...I think he would be pleased to know I went to a Chuck Close Art exhibit today. Fantastic! The art was cool enough...but there were also the maps to his creativity for all to explore! Graphs, charts, notes, art depicting stages of development, an interactive pamphlet that allowed you to experience it for yourself...and a table of supplies as well!....it was very intimate being inside his mind and seeing the progression and how he implemented his ideas! How very generous of him to share this with the world! I loved it!
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
AS, oh my, your passion is overwhelming. Such fascinating questions and scenarios.....encompassing so many philosophical and personal issues, I'm not sure I know where to begin to answer them. They could be sprinkled in any of the other forums.....
But perhaps I shall { boringly ? } turn to Goethe and the 'stones'. I think there is a relationship there indeed, and not just with the 'old' ones. Thanks to Richard, and yourself, for making me stop in my tracks and think a little.
I had been taking his interest in metereological, mineralogical and geological matters quite literally, and there is no doubt that he has plenty to theorize about.
However. Using the index, I turned up a few stones myself. On page 290, the elements are struggled with - strong east wind, surging seas - amidst all this, Goethe enjoys the spectacle of the weathering of the limestone cliffs - ' the softer parts are ground away by the action...more solid conglomerates are left on the beach, which is covered with colouful pebbles of iron pyrites...'
Goethe describes the effects of being on classic soil - a poetic mood - taking in all he saw - 'enshrining it in my heart forever' and working out the detail in his head.
What interests me, in relation to your post, is that he says a hundred distractions prevented him from writing it all down... so that he could only recall it as a fleeting memory.
So, his 'files' may not be accessible even to him - but his individual experience or 'journey' helps him to grow.
Even if we could, where would be the challenge in plugging into his mind, fascinating as it would be ? Imagine if he were as the Borg.....* shudders *
However, I can see where 'being as one' comes into play - as 'at one with the world' - we are only organisms...
I looked up his ' hopes for humanity' pp309-10 ; 316-317.
However, picking at bits of Goethe, however tasty, are mere morsels : like you, AS, I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
If not cooked as I like, then so what ? I have learned.
AS, I will chew on : all the better to understand you, Goethe, the world, myself. No synaptic shortcuts.
M.
But perhaps I shall { boringly ? } turn to Goethe and the 'stones'. I think there is a relationship there indeed, and not just with the 'old' ones. Thanks to Richard, and yourself, for making me stop in my tracks and think a little.
I had been taking his interest in metereological, mineralogical and geological matters quite literally, and there is no doubt that he has plenty to theorize about.
However. Using the index, I turned up a few stones myself. On page 290, the elements are struggled with - strong east wind, surging seas - amidst all this, Goethe enjoys the spectacle of the weathering of the limestone cliffs - ' the softer parts are ground away by the action...more solid conglomerates are left on the beach, which is covered with colouful pebbles of iron pyrites...'
Goethe describes the effects of being on classic soil - a poetic mood - taking in all he saw - 'enshrining it in my heart forever' and working out the detail in his head.
What interests me, in relation to your post, is that he says a hundred distractions prevented him from writing it all down... so that he could only recall it as a fleeting memory.
So, his 'files' may not be accessible even to him - but his individual experience or 'journey' helps him to grow.
Even if we could, where would be the challenge in plugging into his mind, fascinating as it would be ? Imagine if he were as the Borg.....* shudders *
However, I can see where 'being as one' comes into play - as 'at one with the world' - we are only organisms...
I looked up his ' hopes for humanity' pp309-10 ; 316-317.
However, picking at bits of Goethe, however tasty, are mere morsels : like you, AS, I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
If not cooked as I like, then so what ? I have learned.
AS, I will chew on : all the better to understand you, Goethe, the world, myself. No synaptic shortcuts.
M.
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M,
M:But perhaps I shall { boringly ? } turn to Goethe and the 'stones'. I think there is a relationship there indeed, and not just with the 'old' ones.
AS:You are never boring my dear! I don't think I would be the person I am today without the influence of your words. Sorry I am so delayed in getting back to you. Every moment of my day was full last week and I rarely had a chance to come online. By the time I got home I was exhausted. Most evenings I spent sketching either in the studio or in a quaint little outdoor restaurant called "Salty Senoritas" where they made the best margaritas what ever was...even better under sparkling lights, beautiful stars (all 2 of them...lol) and heavenly freedom! I think I am in love...with what I don't know.
M:Goethe describes the effects of being on classic soil - a poetic mood - taking in all he saw - 'enshrining it in my heart forever' and working out the detail in his head.
What interests me, in relation to your post, is that he says a hundred distractions prevented him from writing it all down... so that he could only recall it as a fleeting memory.
AS:I went to 2 bookstores during our lunch breaks but neither had the book. I will order in online today. Sound's like he was excited by what he saw and maybe a little frustrated there were not enough words to describe everything that was on his mind. Sometimes it is nice to have someone be a witness to our lives. Maybe not all our thoughts are lost that way? In that another person is sure to remind us of things we may have forgotten that we have said. Not only things we may have forgotten but maybe that we did not think important until we heard how our thoughts changed the life of another? It is in this respect that I think the word manipulation is a beautiful one. It is a very intimate word isn't it? I think of the way I felt when I was manipulating the clay in my class...sort of like the way we manipulate the flesh and mind of a lover. I doubt that Goethe could have influenced you in the way that he did without manipulating your mind with his words. There is no doubt he was a skilled artist.
M:So, his 'files' may not be accessible even to him - but his individual experience or 'journey' helps him to grow.
Even if we could, where would be the challenge in plugging into his mind, fascinating as it would be ? Imagine if he were as the Borg.....* shudders *
However, I can see where 'being as one' comes into play - as 'at one with the world' - we are only organisms...
AS: This is the difference I see...We all are "enshrined" in an individual experience everyday of our lives. Mostly we seek shallow intimacy, a word here a touch there...rarely do we bare our souls for another to scrutinize, caress, experience, etc. However, it is easier for us to experience such things with inanimate objects like stones. Why? Is it because stones can't hurt us? I say it doesn't have to be that way. I say we can bare our souls without getting hurt if our only objective is to simply bare our soul to another. That way it wouldn't matter if the other person liked us or not, because to be liked is not what we were after. Marcus Aurelius said it best, "Remove the judgment..." Do you remember that quote from your book?
M:However, picking at bits of Goethe, however tasty, are mere morsels : like you, AS, I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
AS: Wow, you're really kind, I usually want blood, sweat, tears...their soul and more. However, I mean well...so I got that going for me...which is nice....lol.
M:But perhaps I shall { boringly ? } turn to Goethe and the 'stones'. I think there is a relationship there indeed, and not just with the 'old' ones.
AS:You are never boring my dear! I don't think I would be the person I am today without the influence of your words. Sorry I am so delayed in getting back to you. Every moment of my day was full last week and I rarely had a chance to come online. By the time I got home I was exhausted. Most evenings I spent sketching either in the studio or in a quaint little outdoor restaurant called "Salty Senoritas" where they made the best margaritas what ever was...even better under sparkling lights, beautiful stars (all 2 of them...lol) and heavenly freedom! I think I am in love...with what I don't know.
M:Goethe describes the effects of being on classic soil - a poetic mood - taking in all he saw - 'enshrining it in my heart forever' and working out the detail in his head.
What interests me, in relation to your post, is that he says a hundred distractions prevented him from writing it all down... so that he could only recall it as a fleeting memory.
AS:I went to 2 bookstores during our lunch breaks but neither had the book. I will order in online today. Sound's like he was excited by what he saw and maybe a little frustrated there were not enough words to describe everything that was on his mind. Sometimes it is nice to have someone be a witness to our lives. Maybe not all our thoughts are lost that way? In that another person is sure to remind us of things we may have forgotten that we have said. Not only things we may have forgotten but maybe that we did not think important until we heard how our thoughts changed the life of another? It is in this respect that I think the word manipulation is a beautiful one. It is a very intimate word isn't it? I think of the way I felt when I was manipulating the clay in my class...sort of like the way we manipulate the flesh and mind of a lover. I doubt that Goethe could have influenced you in the way that he did without manipulating your mind with his words. There is no doubt he was a skilled artist.
M:So, his 'files' may not be accessible even to him - but his individual experience or 'journey' helps him to grow.
Even if we could, where would be the challenge in plugging into his mind, fascinating as it would be ? Imagine if he were as the Borg.....* shudders *
However, I can see where 'being as one' comes into play - as 'at one with the world' - we are only organisms...
AS: This is the difference I see...We all are "enshrined" in an individual experience everyday of our lives. Mostly we seek shallow intimacy, a word here a touch there...rarely do we bare our souls for another to scrutinize, caress, experience, etc. However, it is easier for us to experience such things with inanimate objects like stones. Why? Is it because stones can't hurt us? I say it doesn't have to be that way. I say we can bare our souls without getting hurt if our only objective is to simply bare our soul to another. That way it wouldn't matter if the other person liked us or not, because to be liked is not what we were after. Marcus Aurelius said it best, "Remove the judgment..." Do you remember that quote from your book?
M:However, picking at bits of Goethe, however tasty, are mere morsels : like you, AS, I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
AS: Wow, you're really kind, I usually want blood, sweat, tears...their soul and more. However, I mean well...so I got that going for me...which is nice....lol.