Göbekli Tepe

[Age]

The 'you' does NOT become OPEN initially as 'you' WERE OPEN, "in the beginning".

No, I wasn't. I thought I was OPEN, but then I realised I was CLOSED.

'you' were OPEN before you even knew what OPEN (or closed) was.

I couldn't tell the difference.

Yes 'you' are stuck with this issue quite often.

A better question to ask is; When did the 'you' become CLOSED, and/or, When did you become OPEN, AGAIN?

I was born CLOSED, I became OPEN when I rejected the idea of Truth.

Okay, So when you rejected some thing absolutely, then, to you, that is when you are OPEN.

If that is how you see and view things, then so be it.

Maybe not if you do not tell us. But I can easily tell if you are OPEN or not.

You can't though. You can't even tell that you are CLOSED.

Okay. Can you tell when and if I am CLOSED?

If yes, then when is that?

But you could not possibly KNOW the answer to this question if and when you are still closed.

Precisely! But I am not CLOSED. I am OPEN.

I agree that thee 'I' is OPEN. But who and what is thee 'I', to 'you'?

What I asked you was when you became OPEN.

A human being could 'become OPEN', and closed, many times in their lifetime.

However 'I' am OPEN, ALWAYS.

So then you aren't human? OK.

You put a question mark so it appeared as though you are asking 'me' a question BUT then you immediately after wrote the word 'OK', which implies that you ALREADY KNOW what the answer IS.

Would 'you' like 'me' to answer the question OR do you ALREADY KNOW what the answer IS, and therefore answering it is totally unnecessary, to 'you'?

'i' am OPEN when i am NOT assuming, and NOT believing, that i know what is true, right, and/or correct.

You believe in Truth. So you are CLOSED.

How many times do I have to tell 'you' that I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing BEFORE it sinks in?

Also, based on 'your' logic; You have rejected Truth outright, and therefore you are OPEN, and, If any one believes, or does not reject, Truth, then, to you, those ones are CLOSED.

Are you aware that, to some, what you are doing is the very definition of being CLOSED. That is; I believe that I am OPEN so IF you do NOT agree with what I believe is True, then it is you who is CLOSED.

You appear, to me, now that you could NOT be more CLOSED even if you tried to be.

Yes.

So you were closed?

Yes.

And i still am at times.

And NO that does NOT contradict what I have previously said at all.

So when did 'you' learn to become OPEN?

Somewhere in my 20s.

Okay.

What were the lessons, which taught you to become OPEN?

I don't remember.

Okay.

How exactly did you make your self OPEN?

I stoped being CLOSED.

lol

Are you always OPEN, now?

Yes.

Okay if you say so.

How about you now SHOW how that question does work by explaining what the 'you' was before it became OPEN.

Before I became OPEN, I was CLOSED.

My fault AGAIN for getting misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Before I became OPEN, I was the same way you are now - CLOSED.

If you so believe, then it must be so.

In fact how about also explaining who and/or what the 'you' IS, exactly. So, that we can SEE if that question of yours does actually work, or not.

I am OPEN.

Your definition of what the 'I' is changes regularly. This all depends on what is being discussed.

Who and what thee 'I' IS, however, does not change.

When, and if, the 'you' discovers or learns who and what the 'you' actually IS and who and what the 'I' actually IS as well, then IF that question works or not will be clearly KNOWN, for sure, anyway.

I've already discovered it. You and I are humans.

IF that is all that you have discovered, then okay.

And, from 'your perspective, 'I' am CLOSED and 'you' are OPEN, correct?

[Age]

Yes I hear voices. Do you hear voices? Or are you completely deaf?

I mean do you hear voices even when there are no other humans nearby?

That all depends on 'nearby'?

Are humans on the other side of the planet earth 'nearby'?

[Atla]

Yes I hear voices. Do you hear voices? Or are you completely deaf?

I mean do you hear voices even when there are no other humans nearby?

That all depends on 'nearby'?

Are humans on the other side of the planet earth 'nearby'?

You can admit now that you hear voices.

[surreptitious57]

As long as one clearly defines what a particular word means to them and it is understood by all then that is all that matters

And this is exactly what I have been continually saying I am here in this forum learning to do

You have just said in this very thread today in response to me that you are not here to be fully understood
And yet here you are saying only one day ago that having your words understood by all is why you are here
I can see some wiggle room but not very much and certainly not enough to avoid the possibility of confusion

[Age]

How exactly did you make your self OPEN

I am not ABSOLUTELY open like you but I am however more open than I have ever been

Are you completely OPEN to the fact that this MAY not be true?

Are you at all dogmatic about your response here?

I ask these because what were you or even could have been detached to and dogmatic about when you were born, which made you less open than you are now?

And this is because I tend to be more detached and therefore rather less dogmatic now

'now' relative to what exactly? ALL of 'your life', or just to the parts you remember, or maybe just to the parts which you think about in adulthood?

I know very little so there is no point in being dogmatic anyway from my perspective

But it would not matter how much or how little one knows. What would matter, however, is how 'dogmatic' one is about ANY thing one knows.

Since I want to learn as much as possible

If you Really and Truly WANT to learn as much as possible, then I suggest just learning HOW to become as OPEN as you can possibly be.

but that cannot be done with a closed mind

This is very True. You can NOT learn anything new or more, which is contrary to what you are CLOSED about, which is what you already assume or believe is true, right, and/or correct.

Also, the opposite applies, you cannot NOT learn when you are completely OPEN to any and EVERY thing.

But what about you how did you make yourself open and was that easy

I NEVER made myself open.

I VERY unexpectedly and VERY unintentionally became open.

In a sense becoming open was very easy to, and for, me, but I totally understand why it is much harder for any one else.

The reason becoming open was so easy for me is because I had NO fear of being Truly Honest.

And it is when you are Truly Honest that is when you become Truly OPEN.

And if it was easy then why cannot other human beings achieve it too

EVERY one CAN achieve becoming Truly OPEN, again. Any one CAN achieve any thing, but they have to Truly WANT it.

In fact inside EVERY one is True OPENNESS already, which NEVER leaves, so getting this back or getting back to this OPENNESS can be achieved. Every new born human baby also is Truly OPEN, to ALL the wonders of this "world" that they have just come into. It is this True OPENNESS, which sadly and unfortunately for present human beings, when this is written, is what led them to so easily becoming so CLOSED, and so making is so much harder, in one sense, for them to become Truly OPEN again.

The reason WHY older children and adult human beings find it harder to achieve being Truly OPEN again is because of the fear of being judged, punished, and/or ridiculed for being Truly Honest in the beginning. We, adult human beings, are keeping ourselves ("us and others") CLOSED. When we keep judging, punishing, and ridiculing each other, if what is being expressed is NOT liked or hated by some, then we are causing more CLOSEDNESS.

Because young children are so OPEN they VERY quickly learn things, including to become CLOSED.

For example;

1. If a young child throws a ball and it smashes a window and the question "Who did this is?" is asked, then an Open and Honest child would say, "Me". If, however, that child is then punished, then because children are NOT stupid, they VERY quickly learn NOT to be so Open and Honest ever again.

If some one is NOT being honest with "another", then they are obviously also NOT (being) open, with them.

2. If a young child, also, is asked by a teacher to provide an answer to a question, in a class room full of "others", then an Open and Honest child would provide the first answer that they think of is right, but if the answer is a "wrong" answer, which the "others" find amusing and/or funny, then the child can very quickly feel humiliated and/or ridiculed. Now because NO child likes this feeling, they very quickly learn NOT to be so Open and Honest ever again.

If some one is or feels ashamed of being "wrong" and ridiculed, again, for being honest, then they will obviously also NOT be as open, again.

3. And, If a young child is asked about a view on some thing and they express an Honest view, but they are judged, and thus feel judged or even worse misjudged, then they very quickly learn NOT to express their Open and Honest views again.

If some one does not want to be judged/misjudged for their honesty, then they will obviously also NOT be as open as they could be, or even be as Open and as Honest as much as they would like to be.

The Truth IS EVERY one CAN easily BE OPEN again, but the reason WHY they are NOT as open as they CAN BE is in essence because of FEAR, and more specifically the fear we put on our own selves, which comes from feeling and being judged/misjudged, ridiculed, and punished when we are Truly Honest, with "others", and even with our own selves, which is us or ourselves anyway. When 'we', ourselves, are judging/misjudging, ridiculing, and/or punishing "others" (and even our own self or selves) when we are Honest, then we are creating a sense of unwanted and unnecessary fear in "others", which essentially is our self or selves.

'we', human beings', are closing ourselves off from being Truly OPEN, which is preventing ourselves/us from becoming who we Truly ARE, and who we WANT TO BE COME anyway.

Dishonesty is what is keeping us CLOSED and holding us back.

Honesty is the key to unlocking, and OPENING us up to, the, so called, "mysteries of Life".

Once 'you' become and remain Truly OPEN, then you will SEE and UNDERSTAND how and why the Answers to ALL of the "previous mysteries" are and were ALREADY KNOWN.

[surreptitious57]

most people in a philosophy forum are not necessarily here to listen to and hear others ideas and views

I have never asked anyone why they are here so I cannot answer this . But I certainly am here to listen because that is
how I can gain knowledge and wisdom including from you . So when you say you are not here to teach then you should
know that you are already doing that even if it is not your actual goal

[surreptitious57]

I am not ABSOLUTELY open like you but I am however more open than I have ever been

Are you completely OPEN to the fact that this MAY not be true

I am not completely open to it at all because it can actually be measured
So I know there is definitely more openness now than there has ever been
And this is because there is more detachment now than there has ever been

[Age]

I mean do you hear voices even when there are no other humans nearby?

That all depends on 'nearby'?

Are humans on the other side of the planet earth 'nearby'?

You can admit now that you hear voices.

Why?

And why are you still of incapable of answering my clarifying questions?

You EXPECT me to answer your questions, because of the "ridicule" factor you hope to get OF me, which you believe you will achieve by getting me to answer your very specific non-open questions, but you show no sign of at all being able to answer my completely OPEN clarifying questions.

So, how about we just get straight to the point.

Yes I can hear voices when there are no "other" human beings "nearby" to me. I can 'hear voices', from "others" who are on the other side of the planet through a thing called a cellular or mobile phone. Like when readers and I are discussing the things we are looking at and reading on the internet together, like on forums, just like this one.

I can also 'hear voices' when no "other" human being is "nearby" to me when I am reading words on a computer screen. The words I read sound like a story being told within this body, thus the "hearing of voices". Just like when I am discussing with "others", through written words, about what we are seeing and reading words together in forums, just like this one.

There is ALSO the "hearing of voices" within this body, which comes from self-talk and/or when I take notice of the thoughts, which continuously come and go within this body, they to can sound like "voices". Therefore, I HEAR VOICES.

So, did you get what you WANTED?

If yes, then great. Now what are you going to do with it?
If no, then what is it that you did want?

[Atla]

That all depends on 'nearby'?

Are humans on the other side of the planet earth 'nearby'?

You can admit now that you hear voices.

Why?

And why are you still of incapable of answering my clarifying questions?

You EXPECT me to answer your questions, because of the "ridicule" factor you hope to get OF me, which you believe you will achieve by getting me to answer your very specific non-open questions, but you show no sign of at all being able to answer my completely OPEN clarifying questions.

So, how about we just get straight to the point.

Yes I can hear voices when there are no "other" human beings "nearby" to me. I can 'hear voices', from "others" who are on the other side of the planet through a thing called a cellular or mobile phone. Like when readers and I are discussing the things we are looking at and reading on the internet together, like on forums, just like this one.

I can also 'hear voices' when no "other" human being is "nearby" to me when I am reading words on a computer screen. The words I read sound like a story being told within this body, thus the "hearing of voices". Just like when I am discussing with "others", through written words, about what we are seeing and reading words together in forums, just like this one.

There is ALSO the "hearing of voices" within this body, which comes from self-talk and/or when I take notice of the thoughts, which continuously come and go within this body, they to can sound like "voices". Therefore, I HEAR VOICES.

So, did you get what you WANTED?

If yes, then great. Now what are you going to do with it?
If no, then what is it that you did want?

Are you sure that's all?

[Age]

As long as one clearly defines what a particular word means to them and it is understood by all then that is all that matters

And this is exactly what I have been continually saying I am here in this forum learning to do

You have just said in this very thread today in response to me that you are not here to be fully understood

Yes. I am NOT here, in this forum, to be fully understood.
I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better, so that I CAN be fully understood, somewhere outside of this forum.

And yet here you are saying only one day ago that having your words understood by all is why you are here

I said, I am here in this forum LEARNING to do. (Also, because you do not copy EXACTLY what I write and add comas, full stops, et cetera, or whatever those things are called, what I say EXACTLY can again be taken out of context to quickly. I did ask you a couple of times at least why you do this? but I have yet to see your reason/s why. Not that it really matters).

Now, imagine a kid learning to swim better here, in the backyard pool. They do this so that, one day, they can swim FULLY the oceans of the world.

I am here, IN THIS FORUM, learning - I am learning how to be fully understood. I would, one day, like that I can say ALL that I want to and be FULLY understood. I would like to be able clearly define what ALL of the particular words I use mean, to me, and have ALL of what I WANT to say FULLY understood, by all. This is then, as you say, 'all that matters'. Or to me 'all that REALLY matters'.

I can see some wiggle room but not very much and certainly not enough to avoid the possibility of confusion

Of course what I say, will cause confusion. This is BECAUSE I have yet learned how to communicate as best I can so that I AM FULLY understood.

Obviously until I am FULLY understood, there WILL BE the possibility of confusion, AND confusion, itself. This is WHY I would LOVE to learn how to communicate better. I do NOT want to keep causing confusion like the way I am, literally, doing right now with you, and thus continually being misunderstood. I would much rather reduce confusion to zero, and be FULLY understood always.

I have NOT learned how to do this yet, so that is WHY I am here, in this forum, to LEARN.

When I feel that I learned enough here, and thus am READY to move out into 'deeper waters', then I WILL.

If I am able to express ALL that I want to, and have it ALL FULLY understood, then the people of this forum will be some of the first to KNOW because they WILL be the ones that actually taught me how to communicate better.

[Age]

most people in a philosophy forum are not necessarily here to listen to and hear others ideas and views

I have never asked anyone why they are here so I cannot answer this .

Maybe not directly. But you have just been asking me to clarify why I am here.

But I certainly am here to listen because that is
how I can gain knowledge and wisdom including from you .

True, and the very reason WHY I specifically used the word 'most' in 'most people' is because I KNOW 'you', "surreptitious57", are NOT 'most people'.

You do, most times, show curiosity and listen. 'you', however, are NOT like 'most people' here in this forum.

So when you say you are not here to teach then you should
know that you are already doing that even if it is not your actual goal

When I am FULLY understood, then what will be understood is the greatest teachers of Life, and about Life and living are the most unexpected of ALL. That is; the newly born human babies, which by the way ALL of you once were. They TEACH (and you ALL once were TEACHING) more about Life and living AND what IS right in Life and what IS wrong in Life then any adult human being has ever taught.

When the act of Truly Listening is fully learned, then what is being taught and said by the Truly OPEN new born, can and will be heard, listened to, and learned.

Doing what is Truly RIGHT for ALL can and then will proceed.

[surreptitious57]

what I say EXACTLY can again be taken out of context too quickly

I have no interest in taking you out of context as that serves absolutely no purpose
I just want you to explain yourself clearly so there is no confusion in what you say

[Age]

I am not ABSOLUTELY open like you but I am however more open than I have ever been

Are you completely OPEN to the fact that this MAY not be true

I am not completely open to it at all because it can actually be measured
So I know there is definitely more openness now than there has ever been
And this is because there is more detachment now than there has ever been

Okay. Did you read the rest of what I wrote?

What were you more attached to or what more were you attached to at birth than you are now?

If you are NOT completely open to the possibility that some thing may not be true, then how could you be more detached now?

Do you see the contradiction, irony, and humor in saying; I am NOT completely open at all now to the idea that I could have been more open previously? And, So, I KNOW there is definitely more openness now, and this is because there is more detachment now than there ever has been?

The words 'so', 'know', and 'definitely' bring with them a sense of being CLOSED and NOT at all an OPENNESS.

But if the above is what you SEE as being true, then we will just leave it just as it is if that is what you would like?

[Age]

You can admit now that you hear voices.

Why?

And why are you still of incapable of answering my clarifying questions?

You EXPECT me to answer your questions, because of the "ridicule" factor you hope to get OF me, which you believe you will achieve by getting me to answer your very specific non-open questions, but you show no sign of at all being able to answer my completely OPEN clarifying questions.

So, how about we just get straight to the point.

Yes I can hear voices when there are no "other" human beings "nearby" to me. I can 'hear voices', from "others" who are on the other side of the planet through a thing called a cellular or mobile phone. Like when readers and I are discussing the things we are looking at and reading on the internet together, like on forums, just like this one.

I can also 'hear voices' when no "other" human being is "nearby" to me when I am reading words on a computer screen. The words I read sound like a story being told within this body, thus the "hearing of voices". Just like when I am discussing with "others", through written words, about what we are seeing and reading words together in forums, just like this one.

There is ALSO the "hearing of voices" within this body, which comes from self-talk and/or when I take notice of the thoughts, which continuously come and go within this body, they to can sound like "voices". Therefore, I HEAR VOICES.

So, did you get what you WANTED?

If yes, then great. Now what are you going to do with it?
If no, then what is it that you did want?

Are you sure that's all?

NO.

I NEVER even said that that is all, let alone even suggested any thing like that.

I even asked you, Did you get what you WANTED? which implies that there could be lots more.

[surreptitious57]

When I feel that I learned enough here and thus am READY to move out into deeper waters then I WILL

What exactly are these deeper waters that you refer to

Will you be communicating in public with other human beings just like you are here
Will they be human beings who are far more knowledgeable and open than all of us

Other than me all of the active members of the forum are very intelligent but you still want to leave and go elsewhere
Now I will accept this if it ever happens but I do not actually know if you will ever leave here and so only time will tell