Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

[Dontaskme]

It is possible to stop thoughts and just be aware without thinking.

What or who exactly is being aware of it's own existence here? Who and what is being aware Lacewing?

There are no thoughts about that. I feel no need to try to name/identify anything. It's just awareness without thoughts dancing around.

Well the point is Lacy, there is no knowledge of awareness without thought, and vice versa, to know awareness is to have a thought about it..you cannot know anything, nor yourself without a label that identifies you as known - and that is how you know you exist.

Without thought, there simply is no concept of you. Paradoxically, you are prior to thought, you have to be if thought is to be recognised at all, in essence it's all you being you and not you.

Are you the awareness of a thought? or are you the thought you are aware of?

These thoughts don't arise for me then or now. Doesn't seem to matter.

That might be so for you, but however, the ''me'' doesn't exist without thought and the awareness of the thought. So to be able to make a claim of thoughts about awareness and thought not arising in 'me' requires those exact thoughts to have arisen in you at some point, else you wouldn't be recognising them now by claiming they don't arise in you. To make the claim they don't arise in you, you already have to know the thoughts that you claim are not arising in you.

To claim there is a ''me'' requires an awareness of that thought 'me' to be known. Remember, all words are just thoughts and thoughts are concepts constantly recognising themselves as and through the awareness in which they are known to arise and fall.

Notice thoughts come and go quite randomly and spontaneously, while awareness doesn't come and go, rather, it has to stick around permanently.

What I notice is that a lot of noisy thoughts obscure awareness.

Yes, that is true. The mind is like a veil over your true pure self. .

Also notice there can be no stopping thoughts from coming and going as they often arise uninvited and leave quietly unannounced.

Well this is opposite to what I said: "It is possible to stop thoughts and just be aware without thinking." So, no, your phrase "there can be no stopping thoughts" is not what I notice. I agree that thoughts can arise uninvited, and come and go loudly or quietly. But they can be turned off in any moment, which appears to become easier with practice.

You can stop focusing on your thoughts that arise in you, but you cannot turn your thoughts off, or stop them from arising. That was the point I was making. You cannot unhinge yourself from your thought processing mechanism, because it's all you. If you could turn them off, then you would be able to prevent them appearing ever again, this is not possible.

I do not think this is something I need to quest after or define or create a belief/thought system around.

That's fine for you then, but other people like to question the vadility and true ownership of their thoughts.

All of that would create something human-made.

2) Knowing that I can turn off the noise/thoughts and experience this "awareness" any time, shows that all is one, ever-present and accessible. The sense from this is that life, with all of its creative and superficial manifestations and imaginings, is PERFECT. All is well.

Well thanks for your thoughts on this subject, I have no argument with your ideas because they are your own unique seeing, the way you see it.

For me, I see even the human idea is just a thought, I have no idea what is a thought or where thought comes from except to say from nowhere.
And that thought give birth to other thoughts, in that every thought that appears is only ever triggered by the previous thought and is what gives continuity to the experience of being here.

For me, a human is a mental creation, and not the other way around, humans don't make anything.
For me, you are awareness, as awareness you do not experience your "awareness" ...the one experiencing it's own awareness is a mental construction which is already an idea couched within awareness itself, for me, you cannot experience your own presence or absence.
To know your own presence and absence is of the mind. . the mind is a perceived appearance in you, that can come and go, that which is aware of what can come and go cannot itself be perceived, for it is the percieving / experiencing.



And yes, all is PERFECT. All is well...in the you that was never born. Only the mind is born not you, the mental creation of you..that you are aware of but cannot experience that creation, because you already are it.

You are the changeless change.
The peace beneath the noise.
The perfection within the imperfect.
The unmoved mover.
The unborn born.
Etc etc etc...

I could go on, but I'll leave it there, as you probably already get the gist I'm sure.

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[Dontaskme]

This kind of arguments never ends...

There is no end to that which never starts. There is no start to that which never ends.

Start implies End. So the start has already ended before it has started.

End implies Start. So the end has already started before it has ended. A vicious cycle ensues without beginning nor end.

Oneness cannot argue with itself unless it invents one to argue with.

The invention of Oneness can only relate to itself, from itself, to itself alone. TAG, You're the ONE.

Without other to be aware of there is no you to be aware.

Aware of being aware. IS ALL ONE...and oneness has no argument with itself, except it's SAME self in it's own conception.

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[Dontaskme]

I do not believe God exists

Does I that does not believe God exists exist?

What would you do?

You don't do, doing is you.

I'm only ever doing what I am not doing.

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[Dontaskme]

'thought' cannot scratch the surface of 'God' because God ........ is a COMPLETE thought.

My comment on this one:

I take it that by complete you mean "perfect" thought

What is wrong with right now unless you think about it?

There is nothing wrong with right now unless right now is wrong...but even if right now was wrong, that would still be right now being wrong, so even wrong is always right now.

Wrong is right and right is wrong. It's all alright, you're ok, I'm ok.

Can that which is completely here now never not be here now by existing in and of themselves as some separate parts somewhere else?

Same goes for a lie, a lie is always the truth because there is only the truth right now. The truth is always right. The mirror never lies.

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[Lacewing]

Well the point is Lacy, there is no knowledge of awareness without thought, and vice versa, to know awareness is to have a thought about it

It's important to understand that the words/concepts I'm using now to try to describe it is not something I think at the time.

It is very difficult to explain. It is like seeing...without any mental chatter, identifications, or judgements going on. And no, there is no concept or identity of a "seer" either.

Without thought, there simply is no concept of you.

There is no concept of me at the time.

You can stop focusing on your thoughts that arise in you, but you cannot turn your thoughts off, or stop them from arising.

So are you telling me what's possible and that I'm mistaken about what I'm telling you about myself? How do you know, and why do you do this?

If you could turn them off, then you would be able to prevent them appearing ever again

Do you think that is the only demonstrative proof of being able to turn them off at all? Do you think that anyone who turns them off would WANT to do so forever?

I take it you've not done this sort of thing, and that's why you're saying the things you are saying?

As I said in my post: "There is nothing to escape. There is only awareness of perfection." I am "here" and I accept being in this physical, human world, with all of its sensory experience and creative potential. I feel no desire to turn off my thoughts forever -- which would likely require death. Thoughts are needed for this human dance. However, being able to stop thoughts at times points to a backdrop of calm interconnectedness and perfection, which has enhanced (for me) the experience of being here.

I do not think this is something I need to quest after or define or create a belief/thought system around.

That's fine for you then, but other people like to question the vadility and true ownership of their thoughts.

The statement you've just quoted of me is not talking about thoughts. It's also worth noting that when people question and quest for truth about themselves or others or life or the universe or whatever, they are very prone to making up stories and imposing limits and divides. That's just what thoughts end up being used for, right?

I have no argument with your ideas because they are your own unique seeing, the way you see it.

Yet you used much of your response to tell me that what I've described is not possible.

I find it funny that you're using so many thoughts to respond to my description of not having thoughts at times. If you would quiet all of that down, you might glimpse what I'm saying. It seems perfectly in line with the "non-duality" you often talk about -- although sometimes you seem to muddy and confuse that with too much thinking.

All of these thoughts/ideas/beliefs that you are projecting onto me -- telling me how it is and how it can and can't be, are your thoughts about it. They do not reflect what I'm sharing with you.

[Dontaskme]

All of these thoughts/ideas/beliefs that you are projecting onto me -- telling me how it is and how it can and can't be, are your thoughts about it. They do not reflect what I'm sharing with you.

I'm telling you is how is for me not you, Why do you always make this about you? why do you do that?

Only your thoughts that you share with me matter to you, they do not matter to me. I'm simply sharing my thoughts with you that matter to me not projecting them at you as if they were your thoughts too. I'm simply saying how it is for me only. We are comparing ideas, showing each other our unique thoughts about stuff that's all. No one is forcing their ideas by ramming them down other peoples throats expecting them to swallow those thoughts as if to get everyone to think exactly alike for christ sake.. Get a grip ffs !!

That's all that's happening here... but as per usual, you assume I'm trying to tell you how it is and how it can and can't be, it's like you play that boring card on me every time you talk to me, I'm so over this tactic, you are a hopeless case to discuss this topic with. Having such a disccusion with you is like constantly beating my head against a brick wall.

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[Lacewing]

I'm simply saying how it is for me only.

If you were to describe something to me, and my response to you was essentially:
"That's not possible"
"That's not how it works"
"Here's how it works"

Do those sound like responses that are only offering personal opinion? Or do they sound like claims of absolute knowing that override anything else that is said?

[Dontaskme]

I feel no desire to turn off my thoughts forever

I simply said thoughts cannot be turned off. I used the self referencing label 'you' as only a 'you' could turn off a thought. Funny enough, I have a 'you' here as well...lets not get all sematic about which 'you' we are referring to here. Discussion with another about anything knowledable can only be about what you personally have experienced for yourself, you are simple showing the other what is for you, never telling them that what it's like for you is how it is for them as well, lets get that straight ffs.

I did not mean the 'personal you' when I said you cannot turn off your thought. I'm talking about the idea that thoughts can be turned off at all!!

In my opinion they cannot, that's all I was saying to you. If you don't want to hear that, and you know for sure from your own direct experience how to turn off your thoughts, then that's for you to know, I have no quibble with that, but if you want to share that information with me, then be my guest, tell me how you can turn your thoughts off?

I'm simply saying to you that I can observe my thoughts without identifying with them, in the sense of not making them matter to me, but I cannot turn them off. I don't even know what you mean by turning a thought off. That to me is like me saying I can turn off my consciousness that is aware of thought, and it's like, how the heck do I do that? Consciousness is permanently ON period!!

I simply said to you that I cannot turn off my thoughts, I wasn't implying that you can't turn yours off, please try to listen to what's actually being communicated here, without making this always about assuming I'm making it about you.

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[Lacewing]

I simply said to you that I cannot turn off my thoughts, I wasn't implying that you can't turn yours off, please try to listen to what's actually being communicated here, without making this always about assuming I'm making it about you.

Please try to listen to yourself. Maybe your communication is revealing how much you think you know that applies to other people. If not, then your communication is not efficiently expressing that you're talking about yourself and not denying what other people can or can't do when you say over and over... "you can't" and "it's not possible" and "this is the way it works".

I'm simply saying to you that I can observe my thoughts without identifying with them, in the sense of not making them matter to me, but I cannot turn them off. I don't even know what you mean by turning a thought off.

Okay, so that explains a bit.

I would think that the logical "end point" of exploring non-duality (which you talk about frequently) would be to reach a place where there's absolutely "no other"... which seems for me to be where thoughts disappear? Because there's no other to think about. And that can be tapped into now somewhat (from my perspective). I did not realize how different our experience/concepts would be about this.

[Dontaskme]

I simply said to you that I cannot turn off my thoughts, I wasn't implying that you can't turn yours off, please try to listen to what's actually being communicated here, without making this always about assuming I'm making it about you.

Please try to listen to yourself. Maybe your communication is revealing how much you think you know that applies to other people.

No, that's not what is being implied here at all, that's just your own assumption again!! listen to yourself for a change.

If not, then your communication is not efficiently expressing that you're talking about yourself and not denying what other people can or can't do when you say over and over... "you can't" and "it's not possible" and "this is the way it works".

Not denying others of what they personally know. Why would I ?

It's not my intention, something you seem to assume is, to tell others that how it is for me is how it is for them too, I really do not understand why you seem to want to complicate this issue over and over again like you always do when you talk to me about anything. I suggest to you to just be silent and listen to what's being pointed at rather than pointing your finger at what you think is being said but actually isn't.

I'm simply saying to you that I can observe my thoughts without identifying with them, in the sense of not making them matter to me, but I cannot turn them off. I don't even know what you mean by turning a thought off.

Okay, so that explains a bit.

I would think that the logical "end point" of exploring non-duality (which you talk about frequently) would be to reach a place where there's absolutely "no other"... which seems for me to be where thoughts disappear? Because there's no other to think about. And that can be tapped into now somewhat (from my perspective). I did not realize how different our experience/concepts would be about this.

But for me HERE, there is no reaching a place where there is 'no other' I simply know that without other there is no me. I've always known that.

So you are my mirror. I cannot see or know myself without you to reflect it upon me here. You see this reflecting back and forth is unavoidable, it's how you know you exist.. you cannot see or know yourself, you can only see and know yourself in the form of another projected in front of you which is actually you here projecting and knowing your own projection as it is refected back at yourself.

You can only know in another what is already known within yourself first. Here you are not-knowing, and there you are the same not-knowing now known. Here and There is the exact same place. For you here, you have no image of yourself, any image of yourself is formed in the reflection of you there..in the form of another..which is your mirror, the other you there is how you know you exist here. Every other one is your mirror, many of the ONE..the head is an empty mirror ball reflecting itself everywhere and nowhere.

And is why talking to you about reflections and mirrors is like trying to penetrate a wall with another wall....you simple cannot transcend the wall and go through it while you are preoccupied with the wall itself. You need to go through the wall you keep trying to constuct when you talk to me, and you do this only because you have no real understanding of nonduality. But despair not, for sages rarely speak to one another for they know there is no wall there for them to bounce off.

And yes, it's different that's all. Perspectives, perceptions, interpretations, minds, are many, many of the ONE

IMHO

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[Dontaskme]

To Lacewing.

You cannot have absolute knowledge of yourself. No more than a 3D object can be seen from all angles all at once. The WHOLE cannot see itself, it can only see parts of itself within the whole that can never not not be whole.

You are the Absolute. Any notions of absolute knowledge from a relative point of view, (a fictional story about it) is absurd..all knowledge is relative, and the relative have no existence apart from the absolute knowing you already ARE.

You cannot know you are the absolute. You are the absolute.

We are only discussing our stories, that's all, many stories appear just as many authors appear, but there is only ONE reader of every authored story no one ever wrote. You are that absolute knowing.

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[Lacewing]

It's not my intention, something you seem to assume is, to tell others that how it is for me is how it is for them too, I really do not understand why you seem to want to complicate this issue over and over again like you always do when you talk to me about anything. I suggest to you to just be silent and listen to what's being pointed at rather than pointing your finger at what you think is being said but actually isn't.

And I'm the only one who points out to you that you speak as if you know everything? Okay, I'll be silent, and you can keep on flapping your lips and denying that's what you're doing.

So you are my mirror. I cannot see or know myself without you to reflect it upon me here.

So why don't you want to look in the mirror?

you do this only because you have no real understanding of nonduality.

Is this you again using the word "you" to describe yourself? If so, you might try using the word "I". Your supposed intent would be much clearer that way.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How very PC. God is a character in a book, and I'm pretty sure it was a male character (hence Jebus being also a male character).

[Lacewing]

How very PC. God is a character in a book, and I'm pretty sure it was a male character (hence Jebus being also a male character).

Really? The only god that humankind has ever talked about is the one in a book?? I thought there were gods long before that, in many different forms, including females. Why do you perceive everything through PC-colored glasses?

[Dontaskme]

It's not my intention, something you seem to assume is, to tell others that how it is for me is how it is for them too, I really do not understand why you seem to want to complicate this issue over and over again like you always do when you talk to me about anything. I suggest to you to just be silent and listen to what's being pointed at rather than pointing your finger at what you think is being said but actually isn't.

And I'm the only one who points out to you that you speak as if you know everything? Okay, I'll be silent, and you can keep on flapping your lips and denying that's what you're doing.

Silence is the only knower you idiot, the flapping of the lips is the silence known. But still you get yourself in a flap over this
Don't worry we're all idiots here. I AM the last idiot, if we're all idiots, who is going to claim they are the last idiot?

Is this you again using the word "you" to describe yourself? If so, you might try using the word "I". Your supposed intent would be much clearer that way.

No word can describe what I AM, yet every word describes it. I hope I AM making myself very clear, probably not, in your case.

Lacewing likes to play around with words. . chopping and changing this for that, in favor of that in rejection of this. SO BE IT.

Words are crap, but hey, divine crap. And Lacy, you don't have to believe a word I say ok?