Why America can never be great again.

[Nick_A]

Dubious

Why is it that theists are such loathsome liars? One time I wouldn't have said so, but to me they're the most disgusting type of human there is. All they ever managed to do is lie and distort.

For the same reason that secularists are such loathsome liars. It is normal for the human condition. All one has to do is look at the condition of modern progressive politics. It is filled with disgusting loathsome liars. It is the nature of the Beast.

This is the reason for the First Amendment.It established a separation of church and state that prohibited the federal government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” It also prohibits the government, in most cases, from interfering with a person's religious beliefs or practices.

Freedom of religion protects people from government and dominant expressions of theism and at the same time protects the needs of Americans to explore beliefs such as Deism which doesn’t have a personal god.

The open mind necessary to sustain liberty must include the value of opening to the experience of conscience which enables a person to feel the objective value of what makes freedom possible.

But a new form of theism has emerged. It is the worship of the Great Beast or society itself and the intellect it believes it possesses. It is a jealous God and doesn’t allow other gods to challenge its imagined supremacy.

"Create a community which develops the highest of man's qualities based on conscience. You must warn people not to make their in¬tellect their god. The intellect knows methods but it seldom knows values, and they come from feeling. If one doesn't play a part in the creative whole, he is not worth being called human. He has betrayed his true purpose." Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 135.)

It is too late. Worship of the secular Great Beast has created a culture in which methods aimed at increasing its worldly supremacy has rendered objective values an archaic concept which must be eliminated and replaced by the whims of the Great Beast.

So under these circumstances and without the cultural aceptance of voluntary obligations. freedom is impossible. It must devolve into “might makes right” and every man for himself. America can never be great again.

[Sculptor]

Theism asserts the dubious position that Faith trumps reason. In fact the more absurd the religious claim that is believed, the more faith is seen as an achievement.

Faith is justified under the maxim of Credo Quia Absurdum. It admits to the fact that reason is not essential in its interpretation of defining something as true. This saying comes across as extremely honest purposely incorporating the absurd as a principle of belief. In that sense faith actually is an achievement if that which it is based on is acknowledged. This is an altogether different kind of theism than that practiced by all the religious dolts who, for sake of argument, keep asking for proof whenever they feel it's appropriate.

If faith abides by the principle of CQA then there's nothing to be said against it and nothing to be said for it by either atheists or theists. It simply is what it is.

Oh yes indeed. Its because I have three heads and two spare bodies that I have not problem with CQA. In fact with CQA we can all rest assured that no matter what we do in the world; no matter who we kill; and no matter what we eat, we shall all remain pure, slim and without guilt. My superpower remains unfathomable to all and this means I am the ruler of planet earth. With CQA you even believe me.

[Dubious]

Theism asserts the dubious position that Faith trumps reason. In fact the more absurd the religious claim that is believed, the more faith is seen as an achievement.

Faith is justified under the maxim of Credo Quia Absurdum. It admits to the fact that reason is not essential in its interpretation of defining something as true. This saying comes across as extremely honest purposely incorporating the absurd as a principle of belief. In that sense faith actually is an achievement if that which it is based on is acknowledged. This is an altogether different kind of theism than that practiced by all the religious dolts who, for sake of argument, keep asking for proof whenever they feel it's appropriate.

If faith abides by the principle of CQA then there's nothing to be said against it and nothing to be said for it by either atheists or theists. It simply is what it is.

Oh yes indeed. Its because I have three heads and two spare bodies that I have not problem with CQA. In fact with CQA we can all rest assured that no matter what we do in the world; no matter who we kill; and no matter what we eat, we shall all remain pure, slim and without guilt. My superpower remains unfathomable to all and this means I am the ruler of planet earth. With CQA you even believe me.

Well I was thinking about CQA in a purely theistic sense where belief cannot exist without faith and not as any justification for burning down the Amazon. To battle or at least question worn out theistic beliefs you have to understand some of the factors that still nourish it. Faith is a tree which has grown for more than two thousand years with corresponding deep roots and if faith is to be understood it has to be analyzed.

[Nick_A]

When people believe there is an essential contradiction between faith and reason, how would it be possible to be worthy of freedom and acquire the ability for a society to sustain it? It cannot. America is an experiment that failed if for no other reason than the inability to understand the basic human relationship between faith and reason. The value of freedom is sacrificed for the pragmatic but temporary gains from statist slavery

[Dubious]

Why is it that theists are such loathsome liars? One time I wouldn't have said so, but to me they're the most disgusting type of human there is. All they ever managed to do is lie and distort.

For the same reason that secularists are such loathsome liars. It is normal for the human condition. All one has to do is look at the condition of modern progressive politics. It is filled with disgusting loathsome liars. It is the nature of the Beast.

No doubt! You have one working for you now; one you admire or used to admire? If the loathsome liars of the secular world get called to account and most often lampooned, why shouldn't theists who more than secularists are locked into lying and distorting in defense of their faith or worse, attacking as immoral anything which doesn't conform to their scriptured version of morality. It's secularists who demonstrate against each other but how often do theists argue against other theists? If they don't agree, they rarely remonstrate; they'll keep quiet but more than happy to attack secularists with every kind of stupid, disgusting, perverse argument they can come up with! It's not possible to respect known liars, dissemblers and hypocrites no matter where they hail from. But since theists find it impossible to ever self-correct their views on secularism, consistently attacking it by every trick imaginable, they occupy top honors in the list of the abominables.

So you may call it "the nature of the Beast", your favorite perennial expression denoting secularism, as long a you also include theists in your bestiary of loathsome liars. Everything ever thought or created, every kind of good and evil, objectivity/subjectivity, comes from one source and ONE ONLY called the human mind. Whether secular, theistic, scientific, etc., it all proceeds from its inner sanctum to reveal itself externally. There are no exemptions, there are no miracles beyond coincidence. All the gods and conceptions of good and evil derives from the spongy mass surrounded by bonemeal and that's where they have their home.

Worship of the secular Great Beast has created a culture in which methods aimed at increasing its worldly supremacy has rendered objective values an archaic concept which must be eliminated and replaced by the whims of the Great Beast.

Objective values are whatever values exist. The political values of the West for instance are counter to the one-party rule of the East but in each they objectively exist since multitudes are subject to them. ALL objective values come from a very subjective source because there's only us on this planet with the ability to imagine and create so-called objective values. REAL objective values are the ones we haven't created since values are determined by us in which OBJECTS per se remain neutral without reference to any value.

[Sculptor]

Faith is justified under the maxim of Credo Quia Absurdum. It admits to the fact that reason is not essential in its interpretation of defining something as true. This saying comes across as extremely honest purposely incorporating the absurd as a principle of belief. In that sense faith actually is an achievement if that which it is based on is acknowledged. This is an altogether different kind of theism than that practiced by all the religious dolts who, for sake of argument, keep asking for proof whenever they feel it's appropriate.

If faith abides by the principle of CQA then there's nothing to be said against it and nothing to be said for it by either atheists or theists. It simply is what it is.

Oh yes indeed. Its because I have three heads and two spare bodies that I have not problem with CQA. In fact with CQA we can all rest assured that no matter what we do in the world; no matter who we kill; and no matter what we eat, we shall all remain pure, slim and without guilt. My superpower remains unfathomable to all and this means I am the ruler of planet earth. With CQA you even believe me.

Well I was thinking about CQA in a purely theistic sense where belief cannot exist without faith and not as any justification for burning down the Amazon. To battle or at least question worn out theistic beliefs you have to understand some of the factors that still nourish it. Faith is a tree which has grown for more than two thousand years with corresponding deep roots and if faith is to be understood it has to be analyzed.

No. Faith is more like a fungus or virus that has continued to pollute human thinking, delving deep and poisoning thought and development.

[Sculptor]

Why is it that theists are such loathsome liars? One time I wouldn't have said so, but to me they're the most disgusting type of human there is. All they ever managed to do is lie and distort.

For the same reason that secularists are such loathsome liars. It is normal for the human condition. All one has to do is look at the condition of modern progressive politics. It is filled with disgusting loathsome liars. It is the nature of the Beast.

No doubt! You have one working for you now; one you admire or used to admire? If the loathsome liars of the secular world get called to account and most often lampooned, why shouldn't theists who more than secularists are locked into lying and distorting in defense of their faith or worse, attacking as immoral anything which doesn't conform to their scriptured version of morality. It's secularists who demonstrate against each other but how often do theists argue against other theists? If they don't agree, they rarely remonstrate; they'll keep quiet but more than happy to attack secularists with every kind of stupid, disgusting, perverse argument they can come up with! It's not possible to respect known liars, dissemblers and hypocrites no matter where they hail from. But since theists find it impossible to ever self-correct their views on secularism, consistently attacking it by every trick imaginable, they occupy top honors in the list of the abominables.

So you may call it "the nature of the Beast", your favorite perennial expression denoting secularism, as long a you also include theists in your bestiary of loathsome liars. Everything ever thought or created, every kind of good and evil, objectivity/subjectivity, comes from one source and ONE ONLY called the human mind. Whether secular, theistic, scientific, etc., it all proceeds from its inner sanctum to reveal itself externally. There are no exemptions, there are no miracles beyond coincidence. All the gods and conceptions of good and evil derives from the spongy mass surrounded by bonemeal and that's where they have their home.

Worship of the secular Great Beast has created a culture in which methods aimed at increasing its worldly supremacy has rendered objective values an archaic concept which must be eliminated and replaced by the whims of the Great Beast.

Objective values are whatever values exist. The political values of the West for instance are counter to the one-party rule of the East but in each they objectively exist since multitudes are subject to them. ALL objective values come from a very subjective source because there's only us on this planet with the ability to imagine and create so-called objective values. REAL objective values are the ones we haven't created since values are determined by us in which OBJECTS per se remain neutral without reference to any value.

Moral and political values are not objective in any sense.
If you want to talk about weight, length, or speed, we can agree on objective values with the use of units of measurement. All else is subject to opinion and culture.

[Nick_A]

Dubious wrote

Objective values are whatever values exist. The political values of the West for instance are counter to the one-party rule of the East but in each they objectively exist since multitudes are subject to them. ALL objective values come from a very subjective source because there's only us on this planet with the ability to imagine and create so-called objective values. REAL objective values are the ones we haven't created since values are determined by us in which OBJECTS per se remain neutral without reference to any value.

Sculptor wrote

Moral and political values are not objective in any sense.
If you want to talk about weight, length, or speed, we can agree on objective values with the use of units of measurement. All else is subject to opinion and culture.

Am I right to say that if an asteroid hit the earth and destroyed everything on it including Man, the concept of value would no longer exist since we have invented the concept? Without value there can be no objective meaning. Are you both saying that our great universe the size of which is beyond our comprehension is meaningless?

These aren’t gotcha questions. It is a beginning. If you believe there is no objective value or meaning then there is no reason for the accident of existence. But for some reason you do not deny subjective concepts of meaning. Why? If nothing has objective value, should anyone bother with subjective concepts of meaning? It is all meaningless and nothing has value so why bother?

Does it really make logical sense to you that our incomprehensible universe is without objective value and meaning? Yet our insignificant planet, smaller than a speck compared to our universe, has beings on it that seek to invent the concept of meaning for no logical reason since it doesn’t exist in our great universe other than on this planet. Can you explain the logic of this for me

[Dubious]

Oh yes indeed. Its because I have three heads and two spare bodies that I have not problem with CQA. In fact with CQA we can all rest assured that no matter what we do in the world; no matter who we kill; and no matter what we eat, we shall all remain pure, slim and without guilt. My superpower remains unfathomable to all and this means I am the ruler of planet earth. With CQA you even believe me.

Well I was thinking about CQA in a purely theistic sense where belief cannot exist without faith and not as any justification for burning down the Amazon. To battle or at least question worn out theistic beliefs you have to understand some of the factors that still nourish it. Faith is a tree which has grown for more than two thousand years with corresponding deep roots and if faith is to be understood it has to be analyzed.

No. Faith is more like a fungus or virus that has continued to pollute human thinking, delving deep and poisoning thought and development.

I don't agree. Faith comes in many forms and hope without faith is impossible.

[Sculptor]

Well I was thinking about CQA in a purely theistic sense where belief cannot exist without faith and not as any justification for burning down the Amazon. To battle or at least question worn out theistic beliefs you have to understand some of the factors that still nourish it. Faith is a tree which has grown for more than two thousand years with corresponding deep roots and if faith is to be understood it has to be analyzed.

No. Faith is more like a fungus or virus that has continued to pollute human thinking, delving deep and poisoning thought and development.

I don't agree. Faith comes in many forms and hope without faith is impossible.

Neither faith nor hope are useful or positive modes of thought. Faith tells lies, whist hope encourages impotence and acceptance of your exploitation and oppression.
Your sound like a total slave.

[Lacewing]

Am I right to say that if an asteroid hit the earth and destroyed everything on it including Man, the concept of value would no longer exist since we have invented the concept?

I think the concept of value for/by a human is tied to the human experience. And there is, of course, much more than the human experience. There is an abundance of non-human life...probably all throughout the universe we can barely perceive, as well as there being a great deal that we don't perceive at all. It doesn't seem logical that human ideas of value extend beyond humans, themselves, does it?

If you believe there is no objective value or meaning then there is no reason for the accident of existence.

Well, at least not by human reasoning. If we don't/can't know, what is the logic in just making it up?

If nothing has objective value, should anyone bother with subjective concepts of meaning? It is all meaningless and nothing has value so why bother?

In life, humans imagine and judge the concept of value as part of their experience. A human can further imagine all sorts of great stories that define them and that they are a part of, and they can imagine that these ideas envelop the entire Universe, and are even the cause of it. These are all human notions for the human experience. There's no reason not to explore and create with the human experience, just as there's no reason to believe in human notions to an extent that superimposes those over all else.

At death, the human body and its ideas must surely scatter like dust because they are physical. Whether or not there is a spirit or a oneness or an energy... we all make guesses. But we can see in nature that life abounds, falling away and returning, without any kind of agenda or human notion. Life is much more organic than we humans contort it to be.

Does it really make logical sense to you that our incomprehensible universe is without objective value and meaning?

Well, it IS incomprehensible to limited human understanding and perception, so our human concept of value and meaning surely doesn't apply! We like to think we can know it -- but how much sense does THAT make?

Accepting that it is without objective value and meaning by our standards/understanding is a peaceful acceptance that allows it to be experienced freely from "outside of" our stories. And doesn't that actually demonstrate more gratitude and reverence than much of what theism has come up with?

Accepting that we are like a wave naturally rising and falling in an immense ocean -- reveals oneself to be safe, free, invigorated, joyful, and natural (because there are no limited human stories that can touch that). Then we can create on this canvas of life with energy that is not as entangled in or tormented by the limitations and distortions of human stories.

[Dubious]

No. Faith is more like a fungus or virus that has continued to pollute human thinking, delving deep and poisoning thought and development.

I don't agree. Faith comes in many forms and hope without faith is impossible.

Neither faith nor hope are useful or positive modes of thought. Faith tells lies, whist hope encourages impotence and acceptance of your exploitation and oppression.
Your sound like a total slave.

Well you tell me that you never hoped for anything in your life and had faith it was going to happen then I'd have to ask what's an alien doing among humans.

[Nick_A]

Lacewing

Well, it IS incomprehensible to limited human understanding and perception, so our human concept of value and meaning surely doesn't apply! We like to think we can know it -- but how much sense does THAT make?

Accepting that it is without objective value and meaning by our standards/understanding is a peaceful acceptance that allows it to be experienced freely from "outside of" our stories. And doesn't that actually demonstrate more gratitude and reverence than much of what theism has come up with?

But what of those who are not limited to accepting a meaningless universe without values because as we are we are closed to the concept? Suppose imagination is insufficient to satisfy the need for objective meaning some feel at the depth of their being? Suppose Simone Weil was right when she observed that:

Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation
Profession of Faith

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.

Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world..........................................

These people, as much as they must be hated by the world, are attracted to the conscious "light" of meaning much like a moth is attracted to a flame on earth.

The founding principles of America recognized and supported the need and the freedom to pursue and feel objective meaning and values. That is why freedom from a state religion was essential. Of course the reality of the human condition quickly devolves the need for OBJECTIVE meaning into the struggle for dominance in SUBJECTIVE concepts of meaning and values. It finally devolves to he degree that the source of meaning becomes the Great Beast or society itself which by definition is a subjective creation.

[Sculptor]

I don't agree. Faith comes in many forms and hope without faith is impossible.

Neither faith nor hope are useful or positive modes of thought. Faith tells lies, whist hope encourages impotence and acceptance of your exploitation and oppression.
Your sound like a total slave.

Well you tell me that you never hoped for anything in your life and had faith it was going to happen then I'd have to ask what's an alien doing among humans.

Exactly.
I have trust in things that are worth trusting, like the advice of a doctor.
I can aspire to personally directed change but hope is empty.

[Dubious]

Am I right to say that if an asteroid hit the earth and destroyed everything on it including Man, the concept of value would no longer exist since we have invented the concept?

Yes! If those who invented the concept no longer exist - which in the case of humans wouldn't be a loss - whatever values they had, the good, the bad and the ugly would also disappear. Values have no need or imperatives to operate beyond what its hosts imagine to be of value; they function only for the living. Why is it so difficult for you to accept a simple obvious fact?

If you believe there is no objective value or meaning then there is no reason for the accident of existence.

Also correct, though I wouldn't call it an accident in the sense that it never should have happened. If there are planets that can manufacture life, it will do so. Life is a matter of serendipity, not intent.

But for some reason you do not deny subjective concepts of meaning. Why?

Because as conscious creatures we are certain to have subjective views. It comes with the territory.

If nothing has objective value, should anyone bother with subjective concepts of meaning? It is all meaningless and nothing has value so why bother?

Because in life, as Nietzsche already noted long ago, lies can be more beneficial than truth.

Does it really make logical sense to you that our incomprehensible universe is without objective value and meaning?

Absolutely! The universe doesn't deal with objectivities and subjectivities. It depends on the likes of us to make the kind of separations which don't exist in nature.

Yet our insignificant planet, smaller than a speck compared to our universe, has beings on it that seek to invent the concept of meaning for no logical reason since it doesn’t exist in our great universe other than on this planet. Can you explain the logic of this for me

Creatures like us are destined through every act of consciousness to create meaning and all the interplays and feuds between what it considers objective or subjective and thrust it across the universe as if it were all real which rebounds to being our reality. We live according to our values. But the universe isn't human and has nothing to do with any humanistic conceptions of objective, subjective or other value structures created within an infinitesimal part of it.