Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

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Nick_A
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Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

Plato’s Republic provides the modern method of determining what is legal and what is illegal. It has replaced the obsolete idea of rule by law essential for justice with the interests of the stronger.
Thrasymachus who represented the new and critical view, propounded the radical theory of justice. He defines justice as "the interest of the stronger". In the other words, might is right. For while, every man acts for himself and tries to get what he can, the strongest is sure to get what he wants and as in a state the Government is the strongest, it will try to get and it will get, whatever it wants for itself. Thus, for Thrasymachus justice means personal interest of the ruling group in any state or we can further define it as "another's good". Laws are made by the ruling party in its own interest. Those who violate such laws are punished because violation of such laws is treated as violation of justice.
Obviously there is a struggle for power in the United States which has replaced rule by law. That is why border security for example is no longer a matter of law. It is a matter of power.

The only alternative for citizens who once valued rule by law is to arm themselves as long as the question of legality has been replaced by “might makes right”

Thrasymachus has shown us that legality is no longer the issue. Power rules and those concerned with the struggle for power must protect themselves by arming their homes with the strongest weapons possible. If “might makes right” has replaced rule by law, a person my as well be on the winning side of “might.”
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henry quirk
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What is 'legal' often has nuthin' to do with what is 'right'...

Post by henry quirk »

...and principle largely takes a backseat to what is most expedient. The principled man is, therefore, always at a disadvantage and -- more often than not -- alone.

Own & and be proficent in the use of BIG HONKIN' GUNS.
Nick_A
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Re: What is 'legal' often has nuthin' to do with what is 'right'...

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:18 am ...and principle largely takes a backseat to what is most expedient. The principled man is, therefore, always at a disadvantage and -- more often than not -- alone.

Own & and be proficent in the use of BIG HONKIN' GUNS.
Very true considering the way society is progressing. A man defending himself and his family has no alternative but to arm himself. But don't you think that we would be a lot better off if America was made great again through the return to blind justice and rule by law rather than the modern attempt to establish PC power and violence.?
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henry quirk
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"blind justice and rule by law"

Post by henry quirk »

Sounds great if foundationed on first principles.

Start with self-ownership & the right to life, liberty, & property as inviolate, and work up from there.

Gotta watch how you proceed, though. Flash taught me a valuable lesson in another thread about how easy it is to compromise one's principles.

Vigilance and self-interrogation, brother, cuz the devil always looks for the unlocked window.
Nick_A
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

"even if we can't prevent the forces of tyranny from prevailing, we can at least "understand the force by which we are crushed." Simone Weil

Even if I am on a sinking ship called America, it is at least partial compensation to understand why and the reason for the attraction to statist slavery.

I admire Alexis de Tocqueville as a man with a profound understanding of what has made America a truly great experiment. If it fails it is only because of the fallen human condition.

Alexis de Tocqueville understood what John Adams understood which is that the goal of freedom furthered in the Constitution is impossible without the religious influence. Even with its faults the overall effect of the religious influence opens people to the benefits of higher values. It is what makes people “good.” Without it, America can never be great.
“I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers – and it was not there . . . in her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there . . . in her rich mines and her vast world commerce – and it was not there . . . in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution – and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
This is the main reason that the modern progressive influence must replace the religious influence with the statist influence. It is only through the statist influences that people can be conditioned to accept slavery in equality
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
Where freedom seeks to limit the government’s power, the progressive influence entices people to give the government power in exchange for rights. It can continue until the government runs out of your money.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
Certain concepts essential for freedom and the ideals America was founded upon and what gives it the potential for greatness is the concept of blind justice: equality under the law. At the same time it is the antithesis of communism since it believes it alone can define justice. So by definition it cannot be blind

The Preamble to the Declaration of Independence states in its defense of freedom:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The modern progressive belief is that rights are given to you by a government and it alone decides who is worthy of what rights. Under these circumstances the concept of blind justice has to go along with any objective distinction between what is legal and illegal. It all changes as the government decides what is and what is not PC.

Obviously there is a certain satisfaction in striving for equality in slavery as opposed to the benefits of liberty. I just don't understand it.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Obviously there is a certain satisfaction in striving for equality in slavery"

It's the perfect marriage: masochism & sadism.
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Speakpigeon
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Speakpigeon »

If you can't get rid of Trump through democratic process, then you deserve to have Trump.
Think also of what to replace Trump with. There is always worse, as a cursory look at history and at the rest of the world could tell you.
EB
uwot
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by uwot »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:15 pmAlexis de Tocqueville understood what John Adams understood which is that the goal of freedom furthered in the Constitution is impossible without the religious influence.
Blimey Nick_A. In the irony void between your ears, is there really no room to recognise the farce that a person cannot be free unless every moment of their life is scrutinised by some celestial Big Brother?
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henry quirk
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"you deserve to have Trump"

Post by henry quirk »

As a means for beginning to scour away years of commie crap?

Damn right we do.
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

uwot wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:15 pmAlexis de Tocqueville understood what John Adams understood which is that the goal of freedom furthered in the Constitution is impossible without the religious influence.
Blimey Nick_A. In the irony void between your ears, is there really no room to recognise the farce that a person cannot be free unless every moment of their life is scrutinised by some celestial Big Brother?
You have restricted yourself to the concept of a celestial big brother telling you what to do. You have not realized that animal Man has animal values but freedom requires the emotional recognition of higher values. It is only through the religious influence thar animal Man can become conscious Man and acquire objective conscience. As we are, we remain hypocrites following the cycles of life described in Ecclesiastes 3 including war and peace. No celestial big brother is responsible. These cycles are an expression of what we suffer - fallen human being. Simone Weil describes our situation

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html

Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation

Profession of Faith

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.

Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.

Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.

Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.

That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

"At the centre of the human heart is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world."

Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men.................................
You are attracted to facts. You don't understand those who are attracted to the "good" so cannot see why facts themselves must lead to the expression of hypocrisy without the help of the good for our being.

You cannot blame it on a celestial big brother or the bossa nova. What we do is just the expression of what we ARE. Those like Simone knew it. Secularism denies it.
Nick_A
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

Speakpigeon wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:26 pm If you can't get rid of Trump through democratic process, then you deserve to have Trump.
Think also of what to replace Trump with. There is always worse, as a cursory look at history and at the rest of the world could tell you.
EB
Do you believe in blind justice and rule of law? That is the issue. Do you agree? Which is more important to you: the fight to preserve rule of law and blind justice or getting rid of Trump?
uwot
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by uwot »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou have restricted yourself to the concept of a celestial big brother telling you what to do.
Ah, so your god lets you do what you want.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou are attracted to facts.
Yup. I do like facts. What is your objection to them?
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou cannot blame it on a celestial big brother or the bossa nova. What we do is just the expression of what we ARE. Those like Simone knew it. Secularism denies it.
Well, if push comes to shove, I would describe myself as a secularist, and I would say absolutely that what we do is an expression of who we are.
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

uwot wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:24 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou have restricted yourself to the concept of a celestial big brother telling you what to do.
Ah, so your god lets you do what you want.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou are attracted to facts.
Yup. I do like facts. What is your objection to them?
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pmYou cannot blame it on a celestial big brother or the bossa nova. What we do is just the expression of what we ARE. Those like Simone knew it. Secularism denies it.
Well, if push comes to shove, I would describe myself as a secularist, and I would say absolutely that what we do is an expression of who we are.
I have nothing against facts. But seekers of truth need more than facts, they need to acquire a conscious human perspective which emotionally feels the objective human values within which facts acquire meaning.

What we do is an expression of what we ARE. How many threads have you seen arguing what humanity has to DO to better the world? Have you seen one that deals with how to change what we ARE so that humanity could become more human? Yet if what humanity does is just a reflection of what we ARE all that happens are the results of hypocrisy regardless of the finest platitudes. We can kill and cure with an equal degree of expertise and call it progress.
Impenitent
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Impenitent »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pm These cycles are an expression of what we suffer - fallen human being.
Image

-Imp
Nick_A
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Re: Legal or Illegal: Is there a Difference?

Post by Nick_A »

Impenitent wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:46 pm These cycles are an expression of what we suffer - fallen human being.
Image

-Imp
Very true. We suffer by our reliance on dualism to provide direction often leading to the two wheels shown having fallen. We lack the third wheel which is why the tricycle doesn't suffer the same fate. We need the third wheel until we learn the secret of balance. Without knowledge of the third principle, we are destined to fall on our ass both in life and on the street.
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