Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

[Immanuel Can]

The anti abortion lobby has such bad reputation

Only from the pro-abortion lobby. They've done superb work in slandering us, so they can continue to butcher children.

Also, the anti abortion lobby tends to be the same individuals who deny climate change.

Red herring. The two issues have zero to do with one another. We can ignore that one.

But what is the answer to my question? Why should children who can easily be adopted be slaughtered instead? How is that ever in their interests?

[Lacewing]

Lacewing, their attitude is challenging not because they have reason but because they have (too much) power.

Yes. There seems to be a sense of entitlement that (whether due to gender, religious, or political reasons) what THEY think/believe/want is supreme over others, especially women. Extraordinary arrogance and ignorance. Mankind's quest for absolute power and domination has tipped things completely out-of-balance with small-minded, ego-bound thinking. And like a plague, they beat it down on the heads of others and all of nature...while insisting that no one intrude on THEM.

If any of these particular men had to experience unwanted pregnancy in their own body, they might be more enlightened. Nature happens, despite our best efforts -- and there are countless ways that nature is redirected constantly by humans. It's necessary! Demanding that women's bodies be breeding tubes whether they like it or not because nature sprouted there is senseless.

Humans can accomplish the most when they stop trying to blame and control each other, and instead work on their own self-awareness and understanding of balance and a larger natural system. This world is not black and white -- and it's extraordinarily small-minded to think it must be judged and controlled as if it is!

[henry quirk]

In one important area the world is exactly that: a human being owns himself or he does not. The is no middle ground, no half-way point between.

Making it personal: Lacewing owns herself or she does not.

If she owns herself, then she has a right to her life, her liberty, her property, a right independent of culture, government, or opinion. And this natural right to her life, liberty, property can only be abridged or taken away if she moves to hobble another in, or deprive another of, his self-ownership and in his right to his life, liberty, and property.

If she doesn't own herself, then she has no right to her life, her liberty, her property. If taken off the street by slavers, there's no morality to consult, or appeal to. Her complaint 'you have no right treat me like a piece of meat!' is just noise (signifying nuthin').

There is no middle ground.

This natural right to one's self is not theological or philosophical or political or cultural. It's simple and direct and clean and apparent. It's the foundation for civillization and attempting to negate it is the foundation of any war you care to name (including the piddly little 'war' bein' played out in this thread).

At week 12 of pregnancy (and perhaps well before that) a woman carries a person, a human being, someone who owns himself as surely as Lace owns herself. To deprive that person of his life is murder (killing an innocent). There's no way around this. If you declare this person is 'meat' then you declare yourself as 'meat'. If the 'meat' in the womb can be rubbed out for any damn reason (or no reason at all) then so can you.

The mental gymnastics of relativism or subjectivism or consequentialism can't save you. Playin' loose & fast with definitions in the manner of Marx of what constitutes a person or individual won't save you. Crystals and mantras won't save you. If you support abortions beyond the 12th week (and probably well before that) you abdicate any claim to yourself.

This is just common sense, folks.

[Lacewing]

There is no middle ground.

Yes, there is. There is always middle ground. There are shades and degrees to everything. We're part of a vast system of moving parts and possibilities. A wise man considers MANY factors. Your inability to see, recognize, and honor many factors at work and in play, is your ego and ignorance trip -- and in no way means they're not there, nor does it mean that other people are stuck in the same limited funk that you are.

[Immanuel Can]

There is no middle ground.

Yes, there is. There is always middle ground. There are shades and degrees to everything.

"Always"? Like aborted, dead children aren't really "dead," in some sense? They're just a shade toward dead, and living in the middle ground?

Maybe you'd better explain that.

[Lacewing]

"Always"? Like aborted, dead children aren't really "dead," in some sense? They're just a shade toward dead, and living in the middle ground?

You're too melodramatic to take seriously. Are you involved in community theater? I think you'd be good at it!

[henry quirk]

I say: a human being owns himself or he does not. The is no middle ground, no half-way point between.

You say: There is always middle ground.

Please, describe a circumstance when you, an innocent self-owned woman, would not own yourself.

Identify that middle ground.

[Lacewing]

I say: a human being owns himself or he does not. The is no middle ground, no half-way point between.

You say: There is always middle ground.

Please, describe a circumstance when you, an innocent self-owned woman, would not own yourself.

Identify that middle ground.

The middle ground is the vast range of possibility between completely owning and completely disowning one's self... which is the range where all humans exist... because: Humans own SOME of what they think and do, while many types of external influences and intoxication can also greatly affect and distort SOME of what they think and do... in which case, it can be said, that they are being owned by something/someone else in THOSE ways. It's not all one way or another... it's a continually fluctuating and evolving dynamic. I know you prefer the delusion of thinking in absolutes so that you can passionately declare your judgments/opinions, but that's rigid and not true of nature, Henry.

[henry quirk]

You've found a well-worn rationalzation for absolving yourself of responsibility: 'it's not my fault...I was drunk or high or influenced'.

[Immanuel Can]

"Always"? Like aborted, dead children aren't really "dead," in some sense? They're just a shade toward dead, and living in the middle ground?

You're too melodramatic to take seriously. Are you involved in community theater? I think you'd be good at it!

But no answer, I notice.

I call "evasion." You know you were wrong.

[Lacewing]

You've found a well-worn rationalzation for absolving yourself of responsibility: 'it's not my fault...I was drunk or high or influenced'.

You're such a simple idiot, I can't believe it!

[Lacewing]

"Always"? Like aborted, dead children aren't really "dead," in some sense? They're just a shade toward dead, and living in the middle ground?

You're too melodramatic to take seriously. Are you involved in community theater? I think you'd be good at it!

But no answer, I notice.

I call "evasion." You know you were wrong.

Do you answer questions that you find absurd? No. That's your answer.

[Immanuel Can]

You're too melodramatic to take seriously. Are you involved in community theater? I think you'd be good at it!

But no answer, I notice.

I call "evasion." You know you were wrong.

Do you answer questions that you find absurd? No. That's your answer.

You don't find it absurd. You find it hopelessly problematic for your claim. That's all.

[Lacewing]

You don't find it absurd. You find it hopelessly problematic for your claim. That's all.

You, sir, are a manipulative liar -- which I DO find absurd when there are so many honest and broad-minded alternatives available to you. But you choose what serves you. Got it!

[Immanuel Can]

You don't find it absurd. You find it hopelessly problematic for your claim. That's all.

You, sir, are a manipulative liar -- which I DO find absurd when there are so many honest and broad-minded alternatives available to you. But you choose what serves you. Got it!

And yet...no answer. Apparently, all you can do is evade, since you can't deal with the question.