Why the Ramana Maharshi model for humanity is flawed.

[seeds]

...if you do not believe that the physical body has anything to do with the manifestation of our ultimate and eternal form,...

...then please give it your best guess as to HOW our singularly unique individualization of personal consciousness acquired its individuated structure?

In other words, if not via the human brain and body, then by what process was our individual consciousness sculpted from the nebulous essence of life?

The fundamental process is consciousness coming back onto itself (self-awareness). There is essentially only one phenomena and it's interaction with itself is the creative force of all that is manifest. A perfect example of this process is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS8v6jKPP68

In it, an analogue video camera is pointed at an analogue television to record it's own experience. Subtle adjustments of the focus produces the images on the screen.

So "your name here" (the body/mind complex) is consciousness that has focused onto itself in such a manner as to manifest the world it is experiencing (for some 13.7 billion years now).

Reason dictates that there must exist a logical process that facilitated the creation of our personal consciousness (the thing that you yourself believe is capable of escaping Samsara and experiencing the eternal bliss of Nirvana).

And although what you propose sounds interesting, it just doesn’t rise to a level of visualizable plausibility.

And that’s because not only does it not explain HOW this primordial consciousness grasped the fabric of reality and shaped it into a hundred billion galaxies of fusion dynamos (suns) and their accompanying planets...

...but it also doesn’t explain WHY it wanted to do such a thing in the first place?

In other words, if you are so certain that the situation we are presently experiencing (the world of sensations and suffering) is something that we would be better off vacating via the extinction of our species,...

...then why didn’t this alleged consciousness individuate itself within the context of the reality in which it originated (Nirvana? Heaven? True Reality?) and simply forego the creation of the physical universe?
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[roydop]

The appropriate metaphors have been provided in the previous posts. The "why" will be concluded via direct experience of what is being revealed.

Mind/thought leads simply to more mind/thought.

Find that which does not change. That is the "answer"/conclusion.

[seeds]

True. Venus was a bit corny and their dancing was rubbish.

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[seeds]

The appropriate metaphors have been provided in the previous posts. The "why" will be concluded via direct experience of what is being revealed.

Mind/thought leads simply to more mind/thought.

Find that which does not change. That is the "answer"/conclusion.

What I have found that does not change is that regardless of how we acquired our personal understanding of reality,...

(whether it be through divine inspiration, or meditation, or religions, or from science/materialism, or from listening to gurus, etc., etc.)

...the truth of the matter is that until we each directly experience what lies beyond the threshold of death, the only thing we can do from our present perspective is to proffer our best guesses as to what awaits us,...

...none of which may actually be true.
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[Walker]

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

Your question was, what are we to make of it. Well, I keep dancin' and you keep shootin'. At what point are you satisfied?

I shoot at you and you dance. Then you shoot back at me and I dance.

Around these here parts it’s called philosophical debate (“ya long eared galoot!” Yo’Sam ).

The truth of earth-shattering is simple. Arunachala is Shiva. Shiva shatters the world. The world is in you. The world in you is shattered. Without the world in you, no basis for comparison, is. Thus, true equanimity without judgment or discretion. Well, that won’t do. One can hardly function in the world like that and expect the body to survive for its natural span of years, for when the world is shattered into equanimity there is little difference between hunger and eating, there is little difference between drinking and thirsting. Both are simply phenomena to be witnessed, accepted with equanimity, any notions of causation are simply a detached curiosity that directly connects to all things, as does each moment. The equanimity happens when there is nothing to be done about anything, for all is as it is. This is silence within the clamour of phenomena. Have not circumstances ever led you to a moment where there is nothing that you can possibly say? Nothing at all to say?

Sure, and then the LSD wore off and Monday morning rolled around.

It happened for young Sri Ramana back before folks called him that, because Shiva shattered his world and that left no one to say anything, or anything to say, or any basis for speech. In time, this new being-ness integrates with life in a sustaining way.

Look, I get it; Ramana had a spiritual epiphany in his youth.

Nevertheless, I don’t see anything in your exegetical rendering of his experience that would change my assertion that if everyone on the planet were to adopt his particular way of life, then the world would be reduced to ruins.

However, he’s not alone, because likewise, if the world were to adopt the “Jesus model” (a model wherein dancing the horizontal mambo with a female appears to be forbidden), then no more babies would be born.

In which case, isn’t it a strange irony that if we were to fully mimic the lives of some of our most important spiritual icons, humanity would cease to exist.
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Mimicking doesn’t guarantee results, as most kids collecting major league baseball cards and playing in little league baseball will learn.

[Walker]

Lest the comparison goes unnoticed, Yosemite Sam fell down a mine* shaft when he mimicked the bunny dance.

* Both noun and pronoun.

[Walker]

Look, I get it; Ramana had a spiritual epiphany in his youth.

You've been rendered mute? When, and for how long? As a yute? To what do you attribute the cause? Did you become a spiritual magnet for humanity as a result? Do you really get it?

[seeds]

...isn’t it a strange irony that if we were to fully mimic the lives of some of our most important spiritual icons, humanity would cease to exist.

Mimicking doesn’t guarantee results, as most kids collecting major league baseball cards and playing in little league baseball will learn.

Hmmm, I occasionally have trouble deciding if something is a strawman or a non sequitur. We’ll just call this one a silly distraction from the point.

Lest the comparison goes unnoticed, Yosemite Sam fell down a mine* shaft when he mimicked the bunny dance...

Right you are, Bugs.

And similarly (and again), if all of humanity were to mimic (as in imitate to the fullest degree) the “dances” of Ramana and Jesus, then everyone on earth would fall down the mine shaft.

Walker, I’m still waiting, not for more stories of how Ramana’s own personal world was shattered by his youthful epiphany, but for an answer to this earlier question (please take note of that which I have underlined and bolded):

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

Again, what did he teach that set him apart from the standard array of Hindu gurus?
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[roydop]

His teaching was His stillness (no interior monologue) which was transmitted via His presence.

For those who didn't "get it", it was transmitted as succinctly as possible through words.

[Walker]

His teaching was His stillness (no interior monologue) which was transmitted via His presence.

For those who didn't "get it", it was transmitted as succinctly as possible through words.

Well put. He was kind enough to vary the transmission to the capacity of the receiver.

[Walker]

...isn’t it a strange irony that if we were to fully mimic the lives of some of our most important spiritual icons, humanity would cease to exist.

Mimicking doesn’t guarantee results, as most kids collecting major league baseball cards and playing in little league baseball will learn.

Hmmm, I occasionally have trouble deciding if something is a strawman or a non sequitur. We’ll just call this one a silly distraction from the point.

Lest the comparison goes unnoticed, Yosemite Sam fell down a mine* shaft when he mimicked the bunny dance...

Right you are, Bugs.

And similarly (and again), if all of humanity were to mimic (as in imitate to the fullest degree) the “dances” of Ramana and Jesus, then everyone on earth would fall down the mine shaft.

Walker, I’m still waiting, not for more stories of how Ramana’s own personal world was shattered by his youthful epiphany, but for an answer to this earlier question (please take note of that which I have underlined and bolded):

The point is that other than being a particularly charismatic purveyor of standard Hindu dogma (most of which is mythological nonsense), is there anything else about his teachings that truly represent something earth shattering?

Again, what did he teach that set him apart from the standard array of Hindu gurus?
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Well, your premise is flawed.

To speak petty, I'm still waiting for you to see that.

Sri Ramana Maharshi was not a mimic.

Mimicking Sri Ramana Maharshi as an attempt to be like Sri Ramana Maharshi is thus, an oxymoron.

Mimicry requires two.

Mimicry varies in degree of accuracy.

Authenticity requires one.

The realm of mimicry is not the realm of Sri Ramana Maharshi.

*

Major league dreams come true require more than mimicry. Raw talent, hand-eye coordination, speed, dedication, practice, and then there are the intangibles such as grace to elevate a particular player to mythological realms (Babe Ruth the eternal boy in an age of grim commerce). In Somerset Maugham’s The Razor’s Edge, Sri Ramana Maharshi is fictionally depicted as Sri Ganesha. The real Sri Ramana Maharshi came of age during the Great Depression of the thirties, a time of spiritual thirst in the West because materialism had been such a disappointment in mitigating life-threatening forces.

*

Look, it’s simple. Yosemite Sam can never fill Bugs’ shoes. His feet are just too small. Thus, Bugs moves freely in the dream while YS mistakes the dream for reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1oNz92qJzw

[seeds]

Again, what did he teach that set him apart from the standard array of Hindu gurus?

His teaching was His stillness (no interior monologue) which was transmitted via His presence.

For those who didn't "get it", it was transmitted as succinctly as possible through words.

This thread would probably have never gotten started were it not for this earlier exchange between us:

...The point is that if everyone on earth adopted the “Ramana model” wherein all they did was sit around in their underwear and offer vague and impractical advice such as that which you are attributing to Ramana above, then nothing would get done, and the gears of our societies would soon come to a screeching halt.

Yes. And the species would go extinct, peacefully, in utter contentment.

The unmistakable tone in your reply suggests that you have deduced that extinction would be a good and desirable outcome for humanity.

Do you think that Ramana would agree with you on that point?

And if so, would you please provide us with some direct quotes from Ramana himself in which he clearly promotes or supports such a radical belief?
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[seeds]

Well, your premise is flawed.

To speak petty, I'm still waiting for you to see that.

Sri Ramana Maharshi was not a mimic.

Absolutely nowhere in this thread did I ever state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was a mimic.

In which case, other than for the purpose of creating a side-tracking obfuscation of the actual point, I can’t imagine why in the world you would even say such a thing.

And just for the sake of clarity, the main premise of this thread is based on the need to point out to roydop how wrong he is in assuming that the extinction of the human species is a good and desirable goal.

Is that a flawed premise?

Or do you agree with him?

Look, it’s simple. Yosemite Sam can never fill Bugs’ shoes. His feet are just too small. Thus, Bugs moves freely in the dream while YS mistakes the dream for reality.

Trust me, Walker, I am well aware of the dream-like nature of the universe.

Now I don’t expect you to agree with my presentation, but If you can stomach it, then watch this short segment from one of the video lectures I made on that very subject approximately 25 years ago, here - https://youtu.be/bVbpHy4nncA
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[Walker]

Is that a flawed premise?

This is your flawed premise.

“And similarly (and again), if all of humanity were to mimic (as in imitate to the fullest degree) the “dances” of Ramana and Jesus, then everyone on earth would fall down the mine shaft.”

Why is it flawed?

Because, to fully mimic Sri Ramana Maharshi requires non-mimicry, thus the oxymoronic premise of imitating to the "fullest degree".

If Sri Ramana Maharshi was a mimic, then mimicking him would get a bit closer to "full" mimicry, but still no cigar.

Because imitating to the "fullest degree" is a logical impossibility (A = A), YS fell down the mine shaft ... he couldn't "fully" mimic the bunny dance which requires the bunny view of life (a willingness to compromise by making the world large enough for at least two), and the dance also requires the big bunny feet denied to YS by incarnation.

[Belinda]

Roydop wrote:

Indeed, we would go extinct, naturally, peacefully.

Instead we are going extinct through chaos and suffering.

Eastern morality is such that the most developed psyche is passive towards suffering and death. Western morality is such that the most developed psyche is active towards suffering and death.

Each of those cultural norms is in its unique way of life attuned to its unique environment including its history. One culture includes the holy man and his entourage , and another culture includes Stephen Hawking. The knowledge that we are going extinct is common to both cultures but is understood and accepted by only a few individuals.

A culture is "flawed" by reason of some frame of reference. The hypothesis 'if everyone did it' is empty because as a matter of fact everyone does not do it, and even if everybody did pray, fast, or sit to meditate they would not be doing it all the time. Everybody would not be doing it all the time because in all societies leaders of morality and intellect are a small minority.