Do you believe or do you epoché?

[Gary Childress]

There are only two non-caused agencies we know of: an intelligent one, and abstract concepts

A first cause could be an intelligent being or it could be something non-intelligent.

What would a "non-intelligent" causal entity look like?

Whatever it is, it would have to be eternal (because uncaused itself). What kind of entities do we know that have that quality?

Well, mathematical operations look eternal...in the sense that they are just "always there" and "always right." But it's inconceivable that a mathematical operation, by itself, would "cause" anything. The number "26" has not, in all of known history, "caused" anything. Nor has any number or mathematical operation. So that won't work.

Positing a non-eternal entity as First Cause is an inherent contradiction. And saying "Well, the universe is just part of a multiverse complex" doesn't answer the question, but pushes it backward only one step. The multiverse complex would now need a causal explanation. So that's no good.

So what could it be? What's plausible? Whatever it is, it must have infused a vast amount of energy, order and balance into the original universe, because we can see and measure the entropy from that point very easily. What could do that?

It's an argument to the best explanation, you see. There's no plausible explanation for an uncaused, unintelligent but order-producing entity. But the universe were the deliberate creation and design of an intelligent First Cause...

According to speculation, yes.

[Walker]

I don't know.

Many moons ago I went to a planetarium show in a big city. I saw constellations outlined and highlighted in a simulated night sky of stars, complete with names and other information.

Recently I went to another planetarium show in another big city. Times have changed. Lots of swirling colors and pretty prose about the awesome size of the universe, the origins, blah blah. I fell asleep.

Understandable. Female yoga instructors seem to tend to be pretty. Beats a planitarium most days.

You already said you don't know.

No need to keep proving it, Gary.

You don't know the point, which is that planetarium shows have been dumbed down.

[Gary Childress]

Many moons ago I went to a planetarium show in a big city. I saw constellations outlined and highlighted in a simulated night sky of stars, complete with names and other information.

Recently I went to another planetarium show in another big city. Times have changed. Lots of swirling colors and pretty prose about the awesome size of the universe, the origins, blah blah. I fell asleep.

Understandable. Female yoga instructors seem to tend to be pretty. Beats a planitarium most days.

You already said you don't know.

No need to keep proving it, Gary.

Sorry. I didn't want to leave you hanging without a reply so I replied. Otherwise, what was the point of your reply?

[Walker]

You don't know the point, which is that planetarium shows have been dumbed down.

I've leave the implications for you to discover.

[Gary Childress]

You don't know the point, which is that planetarium shows have been dumbed down.

I've leave the implications for you to discover.

OK.

[Walker]

You don't know the point, which is that planetarium shows have been dumbed down.

I've leave the implications for you to discover.

OK.

No need.

You're there.

The implication is obvious.

[Walker]

Your dumb act isn't all that convincing, Gary.

[Gary Childress]

Your dumb act isn't all that convincing, Gary.

Try yoga breathing or something. Sounds like you're starting to get agitated.

[Walker]

I thought you were going to say it isn't an act.

Just pointing the way for you to stop wasting my time.

It's up to you to do so.

[Immanuel Can]

According to speculation, yes.

Well, Gary, you're going to have to speculate. In fact, you already are. The question is, have you placed your speculation on the best bet, or on a desperate long shot.

[Gary Childress]

According to speculation, yes.

Well, Gary, you're going to have to speculate. In fact, you already are. The question is, have you placed your speculation on the best bet, or on a desperate long shot.

If there is a God, then the situation for me is whatever it is. If there is not a God then the situation for me is whatever it is. For some, religion is apparently somehow like a horse race. I know not why.

[Gary Childress]

I thought you were going to say it isn't an act.

Just pointing the way for you to stop wasting my time.

It's up to you to do so.

I really don't care. My world doesn't revolve around your time constraints. However, I suspect it isn't wasting your time since you keep returning to our conversation. I mean, if you are worried about your time, then you have ample opportunity to not reply. Otherwise you're being foolish.

[Immanuel Can]

If there is a God, then the situation for me is whatever it is.

What gives you so much assurance that you have no present possibility to affect "whatever it is"?

What if your "situation" now is negotiable for you, right now?

[Greta]

When it comes to things that seem to be beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify--for example such as whether or not there is a God or whether or not there are "dimensions" to the world and our existences which transcend our average, every day experiences--do you have a belief one way or the other on such matters or do you find yourself like me, unable to decide one way or the other and therefore generally in a perpetual state of suspended judgement or "epoché" with respect to those things?

Epoché all the way. It's the frission between the desire to understand and the impossibility of doing so.

Our brains and bodies have been shaped by the genetics of those who survived long enough to bear and rear offspring. Our brains are mode suited to perceiving actual reality but filtering out whatever is least essential. If we perceived actual reality it would seem like chaos to us - we'd be seeing and hearing magnetic fields and tiny chemical reactions. We would struggle to distinguish that which was essential for survival from ephemera.

Thus, we need not beat ourselves up about our ignorance. It's like failing one of those exams that does not refer to the material what you were taught in class. There would appear to be valid grounds for appeal, should worst come to worst

[Dubious]

According to speculation, yes.

Well, Gary, you're going to have to speculate. In fact, you already are. The question is, have you placed your speculation on the best bet, or on a desperate long shot.

If there is a God, then the situation for me is whatever it is. If there is not a God then the situation for me is whatever it is. For some, religion is apparently somehow like a horse race. I know not why.

It became habit forming when the consolations of religion outstripped those of philosophy. Without those mythical consolations, "the situation is whatever it is" or perceived to be...a situation in which god has nothing to say because it never said anything anyways.