Liberty

[kullboys]

Liberty
Diagrammatically, Liberty is an ethical dimension opposed to tyranny
As a dimension it may be seen as extending from Freedom to Tolerance
Freedom as a value of an egotistical libertine society – and consonant end values.
Tolerance as a value of altruistic society – and consonant end values.
Thanks.

[11011]

it's ironic that at their poles liberty and tyranny are exactly the same, that is when you take both to their extreme you end up at the same place

liberty is freedom from control, but in practice the only way to achieve complete freedom is to totally control the world and others, making one the tyrant, which then spawns more libertines wishing to escape one's oppressive control - by becoming the next tyrants

they are also very much alike, both driven by fear of the other, so what determines whether one will go the tyrannical route or the more benign 'just stay out of my business' route (ex. rural libertines)?

maybe just opportunity

[11011]

how does tolerance relate to freedom?

tolerate what? and who is tolerating?

i often here it in the context of multiculturalism or homosexuality...tolerance is more of an attitude i think, both individual and social

freedom pertains more to law and order.

it's possible for people to be legally free but the society still intolerant...to illustrate further

i don't think these two concepts belong on a spectrum, not as i understand them.

[Walker]

it's ironic that at their poles liberty and tyranny are exactly the same, that is when you take both to their extreme you end up at the same place

liberty is freedom from control, but in practice the only way to achieve complete freedom is to totally control the world and others ...

Complete freedom is independent of circumstance.
Total control of the world and others is a circumstance.
Achieving is a circumstance.
Therefore, to totally control the world and others is not required for complete freedom.
To achieve is not required for complete freedom.
Therefore, liberty and tyranny are not exactly the same.

[HexHammer]

Liberty
Diagrammatically, Liberty is an ethical dimension opposed to tyranny
As a dimension it may be seen as extending from Freedom to Tolerance
Freedom as a value of an egotistical libertine society – and consonant end values.
Tolerance as a value of altruistic society – and consonant end values.
Thanks.

You have an overly naive and too simplistic view of the matter. It can best be described as pure fairytale nonsense!

Modern liberty are heavily mixed with tyranny packed in nice wrapping.

[11011]

it's ironic that at their poles liberty and tyranny are exactly the same, that is when you take both to their extreme you end up at the same place

liberty is freedom from control, but in practice the only way to achieve complete freedom is to totally control the world and others ...

Complete freedom is independent of circumstance.
Total control of the world and others is a circumstance.
Achieving is a circumstance.
Therefore, to totally control the world and others is not required for complete freedom.
To achieve is not required for complete freedom.
Therefore, liberty and tyranny are not exactly the same.

freedom isn't a state of mind so i don't know how it can be independent of circumstance.

freedom is the ability to act on ones thoughts.

thoughts or action can be constrained, limiting freedom.

thoughts can be constrained by our socialization, so things like conscience, or conditions of self worth set by our upbringing.

action can be constrained by the actions of others.

i suppose state of mind could help with relieving internal constraints, but not with action.

in order increase freedom of action one must control or limit others freedom of action, so long as they live on this planet.

of course i suppose this is all relative to the world you live in. perceived freedom largely depends on what you consider important around you. if what you consider important isn't affected by others, then your meaningful options will appear limitless and thus you'll feel free.

but if your thoughts veer toward the territory of others, or involve others, there is no other way to increase your freedom other than control them, no?

incidentally, this is why i don't approve of diversity of upbringings and thus values the world over; if there is an essential human want underlying all this apparent diversity, then it possible to construct individual spaces for humans to think and feel freely in. as it stands however, needless conflict as people wrestle for control to increase their perceived freedom based on their conflicting values or objectives, is the rule, and i'd say it's just due to shoddy planning and/or what i call governing values - that is the values that determine other people's values, which become values as a means to bolstering the governing values rather than as ends in themselves; they are values by proxy, they are servitude, and are deliberately pitted against each other to for the governing value's benefit.

there can be no real freedom with such inauthentic values.

[Walker]

...

Here’s a read you’ll enjoy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Freedom

A tidbit:
“Freedom arises most clearly at the moment when a human being becomes active in pure, individualized thinking; this is, for Steiner, spiritual activity.”

[Walker]

Did you know that Richard Rose built his brick house with cement instead of mortar? When the government decided to destroy the house that he built with his hands, the bulldozer that followed could only roll the house, it couldn’t break it up. He got rolled, not destroyed.

[gaffo]

Liberty
Diagrammatically, Liberty is an ethical dimension opposed to tyranny
As a dimension it may be seen as extending from Freedom to Tolerance
Freedom as a value of an egotistical libertine society – and consonant end values.

yes

Tolerance as a value of altruistic society – and consonant end values.
Thanks.
[/quote]

??

[gaffo]

Liberty
Diagrammatically, Liberty is an ethical dimension opposed to tyranny
As a dimension it may be seen as extending from Freedom to Tolerance
Freedom as a value of an egotistical libertine society – and consonant end values.

yes

Tolerance as a value of altruistic society – and consonant end values.
Thanks.

??

[gaffo]

it's ironic that at their poles liberty and tyranny are exactly the same, that is when you take both to their extreme you end up at the same place

no

in practice the only way to achieve complete freedom is to totally control the world and others

that is not freedom, but the opposite tyranny.

, making one the tyrant,

yep

[gaffo]

Did you know that Richard Rose built his brick house with cement instead of mortar? When the government decided to destroy the house that he built with his hands, the bulldozer that followed could only roll the house, it couldn’t break it up. He got rolled, not destroyed.

ask Rachel Cory about the particulars Sir.