Dilemma of beginning of time

[bahman]

You cannot reach infinity because following reason: Time passes according to following rule: t''=t'+t, where t being initial time, t' being time passed and t'' being final time (when t, t' and t'' are finite). Infinity however has this property infinity=infinity+infinity. So, here we have two different regimes in time, one is finite and another one is infinite. These to regimes are mutually exclusive because of the way that sum operates.

Besides the fact that I am getting bored talking about infinities, let me point out that finite/infinite is a false dichotomy from a human perspective.

There is: finite/intractable/infinite

Even IF the universe is finite, to us, humans - it's still intractable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computati ... actability

The concept 'intractable' is wayyyy more useful and quantifiable than "infinite".

We know that intractable obeys A+B=C, where A, B and C are different numbers for example.

[bahman]

Double post.

[Logik]

We know that intractable obeys A+B=C, where A, B and C are different numbers for example.

Precisely. Because you understand the behaviour of finite objects you can reason about them. You can't reason about infinities.

Mathematical axioms:

0*X = 0
∞ * X = ∞

0 * ∞ = ???

[Speakpigeon]

What would be relevant is if we assume an infinite past and a beginning to time, say T0.
This just means that T0 + infinite past = now, which is equivalent to T0 = now - infinite past.
So, where would be the problem?

T0+infinity=infinity.

You don't know. How could you possibly know?
If it is a logical question, then there no logical reason to exclude the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.
If it is an empirical question, then we just don't know since both T0 and the past are in the past and we can measure anything.
Also, by assuming as you do that the past is not infinite, you admit you don't know any fact falsifying the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.
So, all there is to it is that for some obscure reason you cannot conceive of infinity such that T0 + infinity = now.
Me, I can.
So, you have a problem, I don't.
EB

[Logik]

If it is a logical question, then there no logical reason to exclude the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.

There is actually a perfectly valid logical reason to excluded it.

P1: T0 + infinite time = now\
P2: Infinity + N = infinity

Follows:
T0 + infinite time + 5 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 10 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 15 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 20 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now

Therefore 5 = 10 = 15 = 20

So, all there is to it is that for some obscure reason you cannot conceive of infinity such that T0 + infinity = now.
Me, I can.

No you can't. You are incompetent when it comes to logic, yet highly skilled at brushing contingencies under the carpet.

[bahman]

What would be relevant is if we assume an infinite past and a beginning to time, say T0.
This just means that T0 + infinite past = now, which is equivalent to T0 = now - infinite past.
So, where would be the problem?

T0+infinity=infinity.

You don't know. How could you possibly know?

Actually T0+infinity=? where ? can be any number. That is because infinity=infinity+infinity so T0+infinity=T0+infinit+infinity=?+infinity. You can do the same thing with T0 since T0=-infinity so you obtain T0+infinity=?-infinity. Etc.

[Speakpigeon]

If it is a logical question, then there no logical reason to exclude the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.

There is actually a perfectly valid logical reason to excluded it.

P1: T0 + infinite time = now\
P2: Infinity + N = infinity

Follows:
T0 + infinite time + 5 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 10 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 15 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now
T0 + infinite time + 20 seconds = T0 + infinite time = now

Therefore 5 = 10 = 15 = 20

So, all there is to it is that for some obscure reason you cannot conceive of infinity such that T0 + infinity = now.
Me, I can.

No you can't. You are incompetent when it comes to logic, yet highly skilled at brushing contingencies under the carpet.

LOL
Clue: P2
EB

[Speakpigeon]

T0+infinity=infinity.

You don't know. How could you possibly know?

Actually T0+infinity=? where ? can be any number.

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.
And in five minutes, and tomorrow, and next year.
This is because infinity is not normally conceived as a number. So, all we can say is that it is logically possible that between T0 and now there's an infinite past. If so, there will also been an infinite past between T0 and tomorrow or between T0 and next year. You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

That is because infinity=infinity+infinity so T0+infinity=T0+infinit+infinity=?+infinity. You can do the same thing with T0 since T0=-infinity so you obtain T0+infinity=?-infinity. Etc.

You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.
EB

[bahman]

You don't know. How could you possibly know?

Actually T0+infinity=? where ? can be any number.

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.
And in five minutes, and tomorrow, and next year.
This is because infinity is not normally conceived as a number. So, all we can say is that it is logically possible that between T0 and now there's an infinite past. If so, there will also been an infinite past between T0 and tomorrow or between T0 and next year. You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

One case among infinite cases is impossible.

That is because infinity=infinity+infinity so T0+infinity=T0+infinit+infinity=?+infinity. You can do the same thing with T0 since T0=-infinity so you obtain T0+infinity=?-infinity. Etc.

You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.
EB

What I have done is allowed.

[Scott Mayers]

What would be relevant is if we assume an infinite past and a beginning to time, say T0.
This just means that T0 + infinite past = now, which is equivalent to T0 = now - infinite past.
So, where would be the problem?

T0+infinity=infinity.

You don't know. How could you possibly know?
If it is a logical question, then there no logical reason to exclude the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.
If it is an empirical question, then we just don't know since both T0 and the past are in the past and we can measure anything.
Also, by assuming as you do that the past is not infinite, you admit you don't know any fact falsifying the logical possibility that T0 + infinite = now.
So, all there is to it is that for some obscure reason you cannot conceive of infinity such that T0 + infinity = now.
Me, I can.
So, you have a problem, I don't.
EB

This work. I think that in this kind of interpretation though, we might treat T=0 as to mean the 'logical' origin (which I believe you did already) and have a T=1 to represent the 'end' (or 'ultimate fate'). Then the 'now' is any "real" place of time in between INFINITESIMALLY. This, at least might get others to related to the meaning but I already know from trying to myself someone will still find a way to disagree.

If TN represents that "now", T1 is the end as +∞, and "-∞" is the infinite past; then

T0 + (-∞ ) = TN and TN < T1

Now we have agreement in meaning for the perspective of the others (I think), since

T0 = TN - (-∞)
...= TN +∞
...<= T1 + ∞

and so
T0 <= ∞

[Logik]

You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.

SAYS you can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.
DOES ordinary arithmetic with infinity.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performat ... tradiction

[Atla]

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.

Infinite time can't have a starting point, and also, n + infinite time = infinite time.
Unless you use a non-standard meaning for the term, which you usually do and forget to tell us.

So apparently now we have a finite starting point, we add infinite time and we arrive at now, which is a finite point in time.

An infinity of time with a beginning and an end. Mutually exclusive concepts, well done.

[Speakpigeon]

You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.

SAYS you can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.
DOES ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

Seems you really don't understand English.
As to what people mean...
Life must be very confusing to you.
You must be convinced you're never wrong!
EB

[Speakpigeon]

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.
And in five minutes, and tomorrow, and next year.
This is because infinity is not normally conceived as a number. So, all we can say is that it is logically possible that between T0 and now there's an infinite past. If so, there will also been an infinite past between T0 and tomorrow or between T0 and next year. You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

One case among infinite cases is impossible.

By definition it is.
what is logically impossibly is zero case, irrespective of whether there are initially a finite or an infinite number of conceivable cases.

That is because infinity=infinity+infinity so T0+infinity=T0+infinit+infinity=?+infinity. You can do the same thing with T0 since T0=-infinity so you obtain T0+infinity=?-infinity. Etc.

You can't do ordinary arithmetic with infinity.

What I have done is allowed.

Sure, and I'm not disputing that, but it's not ordinary arithmetic. Infinity is not a number, so T0 + infinity doesn't mean anything in ordinary arithmetic.
So, basically, it's what you believe and you can't justify that it is correct.
EB

[Speakpigeon]

Exactly, so you can't logically exclude that T0 + infinity = now.

Infinite time can't have a starting point, and also, n + infinite time = infinite time.

???
How do you know? Do you have magical powers?

Unless you use a non-standard meaning for the term, which you usually do and forget to tell us.

I use a standard notion of the infinite.
However, the notion of an infinite past with a beginning is obviously not usual.
Yet, my point is that there is no logical impossibility to a past with an infinite number of instants and a starting point.
Who is going to prove otherwise?

So apparently now we have a finite starting point, we add infinite time and we arrive at now, which is a finite point in time.

A "finite starting point" apparently is a starting point that is a finite amount of time from now. So, no, if there's an infinite past and a starting point, there's no finite starting point in this sense.

An infinity of time with a beginning and an end. Mutually exclusive concepts, well done.

???
Do you have proven that?!
Oh, I forgot, you never get to prove anything.
Me, I can conceive of an infinity of instants between a beginning of time and an end of time. Not only can I do that, but it is obvious that most rational people can. So, don't you feel a bit lonely with your quirky certainties?
EB