Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Logik
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Re: Re:

Post by Logik »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:14 pm So knowledge is just rational belief?
Nobody knows what knowledge IS. And it's REALLY hard to reason about knowledge when you are asking only ontological questions.
In general - it is really hard to reason about this universe when you are asking only ontological questions.

You are better off asking behaviouristic questions like. What does and doesn't knowledge do? What do you use knowledge for? How do you acquire knowledge? etc. And there is a LOT that I can tell you about what knowledge is not.

In the paradigm of Expert systems we used to have a knowledge-base which is just a collection of accurate facts about the world.
And an inference (decision) which would process facts from the knowledge-base and it would give answers to various questions about reality.

Expert systems worked for a while until they didn't.

What we learned from Expert systems is that any "knowledge" quickly becomes stale in a dynamic world, so if it is to remain useful it needs to be constantly refreshed. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system

In another conception (Nouvelle AI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_AI ) researchers abandoned the idea of "map & teritory" and said "screw it - we will navigate reality with real-time information". The original paper is called "Elephants don't play chess" to suggest that rational behaviour does not require large amounts of memory/processing power.
surreptitious57
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Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
Nobody knows what knowledge IS
Falsification is knowledge : when a hypothesis has been falsified that becomes knowledge
Proof is knowledge : when a mathematical proof has been verified that becomes knowledge
Logic is knowledge : mathematics is a sub set of logic and so mathematical logic is knowledge
Logik
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Re: Re:

Post by Logik »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:08 pm
Logic wrote:
Nobody knows what knowledge IS
Falsification is knowledge : when a hypothesis has been falsified that becomes knowledge
Proof is knowledge : when a mathematical proof has been verified that becomes knowledge
Logic is knowledge : mathematics is a sub set of logic and so mathematical logic is knowledge
It strikes me as incomplete

It doesn’t answer any of the questions of human value. What is knowledge for? Why want it ? Do we need it?

And you answered none of the exclusionary questions. What knowledge isn’t ...
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henry quirk
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"So knowledge is just rational belief?"

Post by henry quirk »

Mebbe it might be better to call it 'practical belief' (as in 'belief that works'). For instance: I bought a big box of Lucifer Matches...I 'believe' every last one will spark up on any rough surface and I 'believe' this cuz experience and reason inform me. In this case: 'practical belief' is synonomous with 'knowing' or 'knowledge'.
surreptitious57
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Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
What is knowledge for ? Why want it ? Do we need it ?
Knowledge is information but not all information is knowledge. Knowledge is therefore a sub set of information
The difference is : information as knowledge makes sense / information as information does not make sense

Knowledge is a tool for understanding the world but there are different types and each has a different purpose

Scientific knowledge : to gain understanding of all observable phenomena : their properties and their capabilities
Moral knowledge : to understand the difference between right and wrong and to live a life according to a moral code
Philosophical knowledge : to ask questions that science cannot about the nature of existence : ontology / metaphysics

Technically the last two are not knowledge as such but I still include them because they reference the human condition

We need knowledge to answer questions that we either want answered or need answered [ they are not necessarily the same ]
To satisfy our natural curiosity and give something for our pre frontal cortex to do [ where all the abstract thinking takes place ]

We could not survive without knowledge because it is also experience and experience is what actually drives the evolution of all successful species
Genetic knowledge which is a sub set of scientific knowledge is therefore the most important knowledge of all for without it we would not be here
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henry quirk
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my take...

Post by henry quirk »

scientific knowledge: an ever-shifting cloud of sometimes contradictory facts; like a deck of cards, the value of each fact depends solely on the 'game' played

moral knowledge: an ever-shifting cloud of informed and misinformed opinions; a sphere wherein any particular 'game' originates

philosophical knowledge: another ever-shifting cloud of informed and misinformed opinions; the other sphere wherein any particular 'game' originates
surreptitious57
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Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
And you answered none of the exclusionary questions
Knowledge is none of these

An opinion
Faith position
Educated guess
Evidence free hypothesis
Subjective interpretation
Non falsifiable hypothesis
Reasoning by logical fallacy
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Dontaskme
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
You don't understand this game. It's called recursion and self-reference.
But what do you mean by that?

I perfectly understand that it's all about recursion and self-reference. In the sense that to know something there has to be a reference back to what's already happened and in that memory recall is where the self lives it's life, but note, it's just a memory which gives life the illusion of autonomy and continuity...but really any referencing or recursion is a replay of what's already happened ...it is no thing or one (mind) recognising or being aware of itself, and that life in actual realtime is only ever going live right now the only time there is.

It's not like life that is going live right now has a stop, start and rewind button. There is no dress rehearsal, no time machine.

The brain is the interpretator of what it is recording...the you can only live in the past or future as a projection. There is no YOU living in the immediate PRESENT NOW

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Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:21 pm
Logik wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
You don't understand this game. It's called recursion and self-reference.
But what do you mean by that?
What do you mean by "mean"? Philosophical checkmate!

I cannot explain recursion/computation/self-reference in terms of anything else that is more familiar to you.
Meaning and experience are inseparable.

It's like trying to explain to you how to ride a bicycle. I can only SHOW you that it's possible, but I can't TELL you how to do it.

You need to do the work (and experience the failures) yourself.

Of all the truly important things in life, this applies to thought/reason the most!
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:21 pm he brain is the interpretator of what it is recording...the you can only live in the past or future as a projection. There is no YOU living in the immediate PRESENT NOW
That is because there is no 'immediate present NOW'. Time never stops!
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Dontaskme
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:21 pm
Logik wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
You don't understand this game. It's called recursion and self-reference.
But what do you mean by that?
What do you mean by "mean"? Philosophical checkmate!

I cannot explain recursion/computation/self-reference in terms of anything else that is more familiar to you.
Meaning and experience are inseparable.

It's like trying to explain to you how to ride a bicycle. I can only SHOW you that it's possible, but I can't TELL you how to do it.

You need to do the work (and experience the failures) yourself.

Of all the truly important things in life, this applies to thought/reason the most!
Yes, I agree with all that. You've explained that well.
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:21 pm The brain is the interpretator of what it is recording...the you can only live in the past or future as a projection. There is no YOU living in the immediate PRESENT NOW
Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:29 pmThat is because there is no 'immediate present NOW'. Time never stops!
Time never stopping implies it never started. :idea:

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Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:12 pm Time never stopping implies it never started. :idea:
Then let me rephrase that. At the scale of human experience and in proportion to human life time doesn't have beginning or an end.
It's a river we are all trapped in.

The Universe began (give or take nearest round number) 14 billion years ago.
The universe will continue to be for another 10^100 years.

Each one of us lives for 75 years. Some perspective and proportion is necessary.

Divide 14 billion by 75 for a wake up call.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

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Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:19 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:12 pm Time never stopping implies it never started. :idea:
Then let me rephrase that. At the scale of human experience and in proportion to human life time doesn't have beginning or an end.
It's a river we are all trapped in.

The Universe began (give or take nearest round number) 14 billion years ago.
The universe will continue to be for another 10^100 years.

Each one of us lives for 75 years. Some perspective and proportion is necessary.

Divide 14 billion by 75 for a wake up call.
But isn't this just illusory knowledge of an unknowable knower?

Who knows what you have just said above?

Who or what knows that?

Can you not see that the now of 14 billion years ago is the same now that is now?

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Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:30 pm Who knows what you have just said above?

Who or what knows that?
I said the above.
I know the above.
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:30 pm Can you not see that the now of 14 billion years ago is the same now that is now?
Non-sequitur. The fact is that whatever was, was 14 billion years ago. The number is a best-guess approximation.

As we acquire more knowledge of the universe - we will update our approximations.
Walker
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Walker »

Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:19 pm Divide 14 billion by 75 for a wake up call.
14,000,000,000 ÷ 75 = 186,666,666.667

:?:
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Dontaskme
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:34 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:30 pm Who knows what you have just said above?

Who or what knows that?
I said the above.
I know the above.
That ''I'' then must have existed 14 billions of years ago to have known that The Universe began (give or take nearest round number) 14 billion years ago.
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:30 pm Can you not see that the now of 14 billion years ago is the same now that is now?
Logik wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:34 pmNon-sequitur. The fact is that whatever was, was 14 billion years ago. The number is a best-guess approximation.

As we acquire more knowledge of the universe - we will update our approximations.
The one acquiring knowledge must have always existed timelessly.

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