Progressive vs Platonic Education

[Age]

You are just like that one called 'timeseeker" and "others" in that you can be so easily manipulated and led to BELIEVE some thing that is NOT even remotely true.

Oh. I don't know about that. I see much of myself in you when I was your age.

My point PROVEN.

I also thought I had it all figured out. I was mistaken.

Fair enough.

I also think that I have it all nearly figured out, and with every day comes more evidence and with that the big picture is becoming much more crystal clearer. Though there is just one more thing to work out, which, at the moment, seems impossible, but it is just some thing that I am working on.

You may be mistaken too.

Absolutely True, and from "other's" perspectives is absolutely correct. However, we will have to wait and SEE.

And, by the way, I admire your OPENNESS regarding this.

[henry quirk]

You say...

I...think I have it all nearly figured out, and with every day comes more evidence and with that the big picture is becoming much more crystal clearer. Though there is just one more thing to work out, which, at the moment, seems impossible, but it is just some thing that I am working on.

Please, enlighten us old farts: what have you figured out?

[Arising_uk]

No, you are referring to directed attention. ...

And yet here you are proposing the direction that consciousness should take?

You have yet to become aware of the difference between directed attention and conscious attention. ...

From what I gather your 'conscious attention' is some form of contemplation and that is exactly what I teach with respect to one's vision or spirituality, the difference is that I don't tell them what they should be contemplating whereas you propose to impose your metaphysical theology upon them and you know what, they generally choose the good. The irony for me is that as someone who was raised a specific type of theist then, I assume, lost that faith and then regained it, is that you think your 'God' will give you Grace if you somehow try hard enough but my readings of such stuff have 'it' bestowing it with little regard to one's intentions and upon the just and unjust? I also think that you appear to suffer under the weight of your ancestors rather than them being a support to you, shame, but it explains why you are trying so hard.

Becoming capable of directed attention is a necessary step towards conscious attention as well as indoctrination but they are not the same. ...

Your form of 'conscious attention' is exactly a form of indoctrination. Personally I think you'd go down well as a teacher in a madrasa.

A cat has the ability for directed attention but not conscious attention

Given what I've described a cat has no ability for directed attention as it has not the 'I' of the 'We' of language and given this even less time for contemplation, so we agree there.

[Age]

SOUNDS like a very interesting thing to do. Especially, from My perspective, and, from what I have been saying all along about HOW the readers WILL find this. Let us just say that they WILL be revisiting this MANY times over, in 30 years or so.

Hello. What do you make of this? (underlining but not italics added)

“In the life of Gautama Buddha we notice him constantly saying that he is the twenty-fifth Buddha. The twenty-four before him are unknown to history, although the Buddha known to history must have built upon foundations laid by them. The highest men are calm, silent and unknown.

The use of the word 'men' is a sign of those times.

But the highest One, however, IS calm, silent, and WAS unknown. But IS now, already, KNOWN.

The are the men who really know the power of thought;

The 'I', in the question Who am 'I', HAVE, AM, and WILL continue to control ALL of 'you', human beings, through thought. Just like 'I' am doing right now, here, in this philosophy forum.

they are sure that even if they go into a cave and close the door and simply think five true thoughts and then pass away, these five thoughts of theirs will live throughout eternity.

As has just been PROVEN. You talking about 'them', those 'thoughts', which is what people ARE now means that these THOUGHTS have been passed on, through 'you', another thought, and WILL continue to do so.

Indeed such thoughts of theirs will penetrate through the mountains, cross the oceans and travel through the world.

As they are RIGHT NOW, penetrating the air waves in THESE WRITTEN WORDS. Words ARE, literally, a passed on THOUGHT. Through invisible speech and/or visible written words THOUGHTS traverse the world, even the Universe now. As human beings continue to explore further out, passed their own homes, into their 'backyard', the Universe, and they continue to communicate with each other over these vast distances, then THOUGHTS penetrate the "world".

They will enter deep into human hearts and brains and raise up men and women who will give them practical expression in the workings of human life …

THOUGHTS are what CONTROLS human beings and their behaviors, or misbehavior. But what is deeper, and underlying, is KNOWING.

THOUGHT, or more correctly wrong thought,that causes your mis/behaviors now IS what has created this world that you, human beings, live in now.
KNOWING, however, will LEAD to correct, proper, and appropriated behavior, which WILL create the world that ALL of you, human beings, so want and desire.

The Buddhas and the Christs will go from place to place preaching these truths … These Sattvika men are too near the Lord to be active and to fight, to be working, struggling, preaching and doing good, as they say, here on earth to humanity …”

Let us just bypass these so called 'men' and just go straight to the the Source - 'Lord', as some might call 'I'.

The saying, 'To KNOW thy Self, means to be able to answer the question Who am 'I'? and thus KNOW the True 'I'. This 'I' IS God, in one sense.

- Swami Vivekananda

Just another labelled human being who wants to be recognized for some thing or another. None of you, labelled human beings, are better NOR worse than another. You ALL have just had different experiences in Life, therefore, the reason WHY you ALL have different THOUGHTS, of which in the scale of the BIG picture they are NOT really that important. What IS important, however, IS what you ALL agree on. What those very few things are IS KNOWING, and it is this KNOWING that WILL create a Truly Peaceful life for you ALL. Or, as some may say, A life on earth as it is in Heaven.

THAT was just "What I made of this", as I was reading it.

But, an underlying "What I made of this" IS, I am wondering, 'what was your purpose for putting this here?'

While reading, I was continually wondering,
'Did you do this from a Truly OPEN perspective?' Or,
'Did you do this expecting/wanting/hoping I would say some particular thing or not?
'Do you have some THOUGHT about this, and wondering what were some other THOUGHTS? Or,
'Did you do this for some other reason?'

[henry quirk]

thanks for not disappointin' me, age

[Nick_A]

No, you are referring to directed attention. ...

And yet here you are proposing the direction that consciousness should take?

You have yet to become aware of the difference between directed attention and conscious attention. ...

From what I gather your 'conscious attention' is some form of contemplation and that is exactly what I teach with respect to one's vision or spirituality, the difference is that I don't tell them what they should be contemplating whereas you propose to impose your metaphysical theology upon them and you know what, they generally choose the good. The irony for me is that as someone who was raised a specific type of theist then, I assume, lost that faith and then regained it, is that you think your 'God' will give you Grace if you somehow try hard enough but my readings of such stuff have 'it' bestowing it with little regard to one's intentions and upon the just and unjust? I also think that you appear to suffer under the weight of your ancestors rather than them being a support to you, shame, but it explains why you are trying so hard.

Becoming capable of directed attention is a necessary step towards conscious attention as well as indoctrination but they are not the same. ...

Your form of 'conscious attention' is exactly a form of indoctrination. Personally I think you'd go down well as a teacher in a madrasa.

A cat has the ability for directed attention but not conscious attention

Given what I've described a cat has no ability for directed attention as it has not the 'I' of the 'We' of language and given this even less time for contemplation, so we agree there.

As I wrote, you do not distinguish between conscious and directed attention. Here is a short explanation on conscious attention? Do you understand it? Have you ever experienced a state of conscious presence? If you ever watch a cat watching its prey and getting ready to strike, you will be witnessing directed attention, There is nothing conscious in it. It is a mechanical rather than conscious action

https://excellencereporter.com/2016/01/ ... uman-life/

Excellence Reporter: Prof. Needleman, what is the meaning of life?

Jacob Needleman: The dramatic effects of the accelerating advance of technology, for all the material promise they offer the world (along with the dangers, of course) are but the most recent wave in a civilization that, without recognizing what it was doing, has placed the satisfaction of desire above the cultivation of being.

The deep meaning of many rules of conduct and moral principles of the past — so many of which have been abandoned without our understanding their real roots in human nature — involved the cultivation and development of the uniquely human power of attention, its action in the body, heart and mind of man.

To be present, truly present, is to have conscious attention. This capacity is the key to what it means to be human. It is the key to the meaning of human life itself. Without conscious presence there can be no real, enduring love, compassion, will or wisdom, or justice in the world.

It is a metaphysical fact that the being of man is diminishing. In the world as in oneself, the meaning of life is vanishing because we have lost the practice of consciously inhabiting our life, the practice of conscious attention to ourselves as we go about our lives.

Progressive education will lead to the manipulation of desire to serve the puppet masters. Platonic education can lead to the cultivation of being to serve humanity.

[Age]

Because they get distorted along the way and become disillusioned, by you, adult human beings. Children, literally, get adulterated.

You sound like a child.

So what? Does that, in and of itself, MEAN that we SHOULD NOT be LISTENED TO?

Yes, that's exactly what it means.

The one who doesn't know (like you) ought to be quiet, listen, and learn.

Quiet, to listen to, and learn, WHAT EXACTLY?

How to survive, and live, in this 'world', and to lean how to continue on creating this same war-torn, greedy, pollution-riddled, and stress-full 'world' that ALL of you are living in now, which by the way, if you had not already noticed is exactly WHAT you, adult human beings, ARE creating for EVERY one right now.

If you really expect Me to be quiet and let you, adults, continue on the way that you are, and which children have to endure, and suffer in, then you are quite mistaken. I am NOT going to sit back any longer and just allow you adults to keep destructing that one and only home, and world, that was constructed FOR EVERY thing on it. That world, from which you, human beings, evolved from was not constructed for you to destroy, but to enjoy.

That's sumthin' I tell the 12 year old daily.

I feel VERY sorry for that 12 year old, and any other children that you have dealings with.

'Talk less, listen more' is what I tell him.

You are coming across so PROUD, of what you do, to these poor children.

You obviously were NEVER listened to as a child, and therefore, thus the reason WHY you are so disillusioned, so distorted, so damaged, and so on such a very destructive path, now.

If you believe that teaching children to grow up to NOT listen to others is the RIGHT thing to do in life, then so be it. You are FREE to choose to do any thing you like, but do NOT be to surprised if not to many people agree with you on this. And, also do not be to surprised if that kind of mis/behavior leads to human beings downfall at a much quicker rate than it is in right now.

By the way I hope it is okay with you that I changed the quotes above around, form how you had them, so that it would make it easier for the readers to follow what is actually happening and taking place here. If you do not like it, then you could always change it back to how you had it previously.

[Age]

You say...

I...think I have it all nearly figured out, and with every day comes more evidence and with that the big picture is becoming much more crystal clearer. Though there is just one more thing to work out, which, at the moment, seems impossible, but it is just some thing that I am working on.

Please, enlighten us old farts: what have you figured out?

'Figured out', in relation to WHAT exactly?

I did use the word 'all', just as the one called "logik" did. Are you really thinking that I could enlighten it ALL, to you, here in a philosophy forum?

Or, were you thinking of some thing else perhaps?

You will have to be a bit more specific with your questioning if you are really seeking, enlightened, answers.

One thing, however, that i have figured out is; If you, adult human beings, Truly LISTENED to your children instead of TELLING them, that is BEFORE you spoil and ruin them, then you ALL would be living in PEACE and HARMONY already.

[Age]

thanks for not disappointin' me, age

That might be what you get, from your version of: being as OPEN as I can be?

Just maybe you are really NOT open much, if at all?

By the way, if you EXPECT some thing, then you ARE, in fact, NOT open that much at all.

[Nick_A]

"even if we can't prevent the forces of tyranny from prevailing, we can at least "understand the force by which we are crushed." Simone Weil

Age

Quiet, to listen to, and learn, WHAT EXACTLY?

How to survive, and live, in this 'world', and to lean how to continue on creating this same war-torn, greedy, pollution-riddled, and stress-full 'world' that ALL of you are living in now, which by the way, if you had not already noticed is exactly WHAT you, adult human beings, ARE creating for EVERY one right now.

If you really expect Me to be quiet and let you, adults, continue on the way that you are, and which children have to endure, and suffer in, then you are quite mistaken. I am NOT going to sit back any longer and just allow you adults to keep destructing that one and only home, and world, that was constructed FOR EVERY thing on it. That world, from which you, human beings, evolved from was not constructed for you to destroy, but to enjoy.

What you suggest is not wanted. Believe me I know from my readings, observing the world, and my own personal experiences that higher ideals which disturb the status quo are hated when they disturb personal self justification.. What you are witnessing is the collective expression of human being as it is.

The world won't change but you can be one of the minority who can open to experience objective human meaning and purpose. Here is an old Armenian fable illustrating the point. Witnessing and admitting the human condition is a good foundation for verifying the force by which we are crushed.

“Once there lived a wolf who slaughtered a great many sheep and reduced many people to tears. At length, I do not know why, he suddenly felt qualms of conscience and begun to repent his life; so he decided to reform and to slaughter no more sheep. In order to do this seriously he went to a priest and asked him to hold a thanksgiving service.

“The priest began the service and the wolf stood weeping and praying in the church. The service was long. The wolf had slaughtered many of the priests sheep, therefore the priest prayed earnestly that the wolf would indeed reform. Suddenly the wolf looked through a window and saw that sheep were being driven home. He began to fidget but the priest went on and on without end.

“At last the wolf could contain himself no longer and he shouted: ‘Finish it priest! Or all the sheep will be driven home and I shall be left without supper!

It is one thing to speak of world peace and quite another to sacrifice tonight's dinner for the cause. Let's not be too drastic.

[henry quirk]

Age: I...think I have it all nearly figured out, and with every day comes more evidence and with that the big picture is becoming much more crystal clearer. Though there is just one more thing to work out, which, at the moment, seems impossible, but it is just some thing that I am working on.

Henry: Please, enlighten us old farts: what have you figured out?

Age: 'Figured out', in relation to WHAT exactly?

Henry: Hell if I know. You say you "have it all nearly figured out". Burden is on you to explain.

#

"One thing, however, that i have figured out is; If you, adult human beings, Truly LISTENED to your children instead of TELLING them, that is BEFORE you spoil and ruin them, then you ALL would be living in PEACE and HARMONY already."

You've said ths several times. I'm listening.

[Nick_A]

From the OP:

The primary goal of progressive education is to create citizens in service to the state while the primary goal of Platonic education is to create the means for the soul or the essence of a person's being to turn towards the light (the GOOD).

So far it seems people prefer creating citizens in service to the state rather than people becoming human by allowing the soul to become normal.

These are the four cardinal virtues defined by Plato. It is asserted that they are normal for the human soul. Obviously then since humanity has become abnormal, the four cardinal virtues would not even be understood much less respected as a reflection of the Good. The four cardinal virtues are wisdom, temperance, courage and justice.

I can see progressive education defining and teaching that wisdom is the collective expression of the government. Temperance would be defined as having the patience to trust and obey the government. Courage would be defined as having the will to support the government and justice would be taught as what the government decides.

If Platonic education will further the need for the soul to become normal, it must create the means for harmonizing the three parts of the tripartite soul

The intellect must be allowed to not only think but to ponder contradictions. But who in progressive education would know the difference?

Education must teach temperance which when done right is wanted since it is normal for the soul. The crazed emotional expression we see today is not natural but only happens because the tripartite soul is out of balance

Courage is natural when a person has awakened to the experience of objective value and becomes willing to defend it

A person can become just when the head, heart, and body function as a harmonized whole open to a universal perspective rather than as scattered parts in opposition.

All progressive education wants is an indoctrinated head which the body and heart are conditioned to support. In contrast Platonic education would strive to allow the inner man, the essence or soul if you prefer, to experience what it means to function as is normal for humanity not confined to indoctrinated cave life.

It seems conditions have made it so that society prefers statist slavery supported by progressive education. The universal perspective which understands the relationship of the soul of man to the Good is gradually being forgotten in the world by the majority. Consequently it will be up to a minority to keep it alive in the world and what it means to inwardly turn towards the light. Obviously it won’t be easy.

[Nick_A]

From the OP:

The primary goal of progressive education is to create citizens in service to the state while the primary goal of Platonic education is to create the means for the soul or the essence of a person's being to turn towards the light (the GOOD).

An interesting way to envision the contrast between the progressive and Platonic approach is to ask your self if you agree or disagree with the following assertion:

The ends justify the means.

Service to the state is considered the ends for progressive education and the manipulation and indoctrination of young minds is considered to be the means that will lead to the desired secular statist ends.

The goal of Platonic education is to create individuals who have become normal rather than indoctrinated. Rather than government declaring the desired ends, the aim of society would be sustained by the conscious awareness of philosopher kings having become able to receive values from above and give to below.

So for those believing in secular progressive education, the ends will justify the means and the indoctrination necessary to serve them.

In contrast, those believing in the Platonic educational goal of turning towards the light, allowing the means to become normal will lead to society serving the purpose of helping people to become consciously normal.

[Arising_uk]

LMAO! BUMP!

So now you're down to quoting yourself and responding. How sad.

[Nick_A]

LMAO! BUMP!

So now you're down to quoting yourself and responding. How sad.

You re apparently incapable of sustaining a line of reasoning that is outside your conditioning. You must lose it and collapse into meaningless accusations.

There are essential differences between progressive and Platonic education which is the topic of the thread. One way of seeing it is by examining the expression :the ends justify the means." Supporters of indoctrination natural for progressive education support the ends as being of primary importance. Supporters of Platonic education know that the means, the creation of human rather than indoctrinated individuals, will result in beneficial ends serving humanity.

Some are drawn to understanding so become open to ponder the differences. Many refuse to see more than two inches in front of their nose so attack ideas beyond this two inch limit. Obviously progressive techniques are becoming dominant