WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

[Atla]

Why are we here? Obviously to grow and develop. Quantity and quality.

People should be grateful for this remarkable illusion. Few grow and develop to the point where it falls apart.

Fewer yet have the will to grow and develop past nihilism

Some despair - some recognise it for what it is. Freedom!

Wasn't talking about nihilism.

[Nick_A]

The idea here is that Man on earth serves the same universal purpose as does all organic life on earth. We transform substances through the workings of our bodily functions. This is what we objectively do. In this way animal man serves as a cosmic necessity. But all the great traditions initiating with a conscious source suggest that Man is capable of more than the purpose of animal Man transforming substances on earth. Man has the potential to serve a conscious purpose as well. This purpose serves to consciously connect higher and lower consciousness. Conscious Man would receive from above and give to below. Conscious Man lives a vertical reality connecting above and below within the quality of the moment while animal man only struggles with the duality taking place within earthly animal existence as a slave to natural laws normal for any creature of reaction.

It is one thing if society says you are nothing in accordance with its standards. It is meaningless. It is quite another to recognize your nothingness in relation to your conscious potential and your egoistic slavery which prevents you from opening to it. This is a necessary beginning for inner growth.

Humans have already moved far from what you posit. We have a space program and that is utterly essential if any aspect whatsoever of Earth life is survive in any way, shape or form into the future (barring speculative metaphysics, about which we must logically remain agnostic). Without the space program we can be the wisest and most wonderful Buddhalike characters and simply die out very quickly by Earth standards (noting that the planet is approaching old age - 4.6b years old with MUCH less than a billion years left of habitability - do the math).

So, even discounting cognitive advances in themselves, humans appear to be on track to fulfil at least one of their important special potentials.

As for acquired wisdom, I suspect that the people of this planet are in for the absolute mother of hard rides this century, with numerous catastrophes far beyond anything seen in modern history. Whomever is left over when the dust settles (probably mostly billionaires and their support) will hopefully be much chastened and wiser for the extremity of the experience. The only worry is how quickly people forgot the lessons of Hitler, Mao and Stalin suggests that significant gains tend to be temporary, eventually settling to very modest advancement. Such is the potted and uneven story of human advancement and growth (inner and outer).

We can't rely on theism either. After all, it was given its chance for a thousand years or more and religions routinely abused their power. So it's a limited "cure" at best, useful for and needed by some, but not others.

I don't think we can "rely" on any one thing. Diverse and pluralist global societies need a range of approaches to suit different kinds of people, just as we tend to do vocationally (we don't hire illiterate tough guys to perform admin work any more than we hire tiny, "princess" women to do bricklaying).

So there is no one meaning. I always disliked the pat answer "you create your own meaning", which is true up to a point but incomplete. In truth, our individual meanings tend to be very similar to those of many others of similar tendencies. We are part of great movements, great "tribes", but are often unaware of these impersonal metaphysical connections to our "unknown peers", but those connections are nonetheless real.

To a fair extent our meanings are foisted upon us and shaped by circumstance.

You seem to be equating progress of animal Man with human progress. Animal man defines progress through expansion while progress for human being is measured by the quality of a moment. Secularized animal Man seeks to destroy the natural inclination the experience the growth of human being or the quality of NOW in favor of expanding with more facts and animal abilities.

Simone Weil understood and was able to distinguish between progress for animal Man and the conscious evolution of human being. She understood what was necessary to balance these two abilities.

“Nothing can have as its destination anything other than its origin. The contrary idea, the idea of progress, is poison.” ~ Simone Weil

The essence of Man is from above. Progress for the essence of Man is the process of consciously returning home while progress for animal Man is mechanically expanding out into the universe. Progress for animal man takes place in linear time while progress for human being is measured by the quality of the moment connecting above and below. Animal man rejects conscious human potential in favor of material progress.

The karmic danger is for these educated fools who get off on striving to destroy the human impulse the essence of Man is attracted to in the young and replace it with societal indoctrination. I wouldn't want their karma.

[Walker]

We exist only in relationship.
Relationship is dualistic.
The meaning and purpose of duality, is love.

We exist to love.

By so doing, we extend the life of the individual.

Extending the life of the individual via love and care, benefits the group by educating youngsters with what they need to know.

Existing to love obviously extends the life of the species.

Thus, by surrendering to natural inclinations that need no teaching, which is existing to love, humans serve life in both witting and unwitting ways, making the purpose of existence an inevitability more than an actual purpose, although mind does like to claim the credit for purpose and call it free will. If such free-will is aligned with the actual purpose, smooth sailing.

What often gets learned in life is to not love.
Surviving the consequences of that, undoes that learning.

[commonsense]

You must be aware of instances where people have acquired everything the world can offer but are compelled to suicide. Why?

There can be any number of reasons. Health is one of the most important ones. Possibly to escape from a truly bad conscience. Not everything can be resolved by money. But I don't know of any millionaires or billionaires who got so bored with their wealth they decided to commit suicide because life was no-longer worth living.

Point of information: suicide is most often the result of clinical depression. Exogenous materialism is rarely the root cause of depression. This is a complex disease, recognizable by the congruence of a set of signs and symptoms with MDMS-5's definition of depression.

[commonsense]

You must be aware of instances where people have acquired everything the world can offer but are compelled to suicide. Why?

There can be any number of reasons. Health is one of the most important ones.

Yes, they will do themselves in due to the illegality of euthanasia and fear of long term incapacitation, suffering and being an imposition on those you hope to impose upon least. There have been a few high profile cases, such as the brilliant Terry Pratchett, who was afflicted with Alzheimer's and went to the Swiss Exit clinic. I understand that Robin Williams was suffering with Lewy bodies dementia. Two extremely funny and intelligent men who faced intimidating end of life decisions.

Each of you is right, however the leading cause of suicide is depression.

[bahman]

I know this is a basic question! But why our we here, most people go through there lives not questioning the reason why? People like us have ideas, views an urge to understand what this is all about? Do you think we are ever going to find the answer?

It is a unique experience.

[Nick_A]

Dubious

Nick_A wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:38 am

The question of the thread is why we exist.
The question for me is why ask the question? The fact we're here should be enough. The answer may be derived scientifically - which is never good enough - since it doesn't explain the Purpose of it being the explanation we seek.

Since there is no answer to such questions, we keep asking as if there were an absolute statement of such somewhere out there. Never finding any we keep theorizing our own editions of Meaning & Purpose. It's become a philosophic sports field where each team tries to score against the other for the best reasons why we exist.

We ask the question because we sense there is something about our being which is not right. We live in opposition to ourselves. St. Paul called himself the wretched man and Plato said let the inner and outer man be as one. Clearly they are not. This is the human condition. The question why we are here is a perfectly normal response to the human condition we experience.

How do you know there is no answer? Perhaps conscious striving to “know thyself” or have the experience of oneself can reveal enough to indicate why we are here. But we must learn how to “know thyself” and how it differs from efforts to imagine oneself which has become the rage of the day.

For me personally, the leading edge of that "WHY" is more prone to exist in music than in words...a kind of scripture in sound. It is then the mind ceases to think within its limited feeling-encrusted verbalizations and actually begins to feel what it seeks achieving escape velocity at the point where words fail. It's an expansion that can't verbalize the Why; you can only feel it. I don't need more than that.

I agree. The awakening power of sacred music is incredible and far surpasses what words are capable of. Words are good for explaining concepts but feeling the depth of ideas which touch the whole of oneself comes through art and especially music IMO

Music can both lead to awakening or serve as a means to devolve into imagination. One of the dangers of the human condition is to confuse awakening with imagination.

[Greta]

The idea here is that Man on earth serves the same universal purpose as does all organic life on earth. We transform substances through the workings of our bodily functions. This is what we objectively do. In this way animal man serves as a cosmic necessity. But all the great traditions initiating with a conscious source suggest that Man is capable of more than the purpose of animal Man transforming substances on earth. Man has the potential to serve a conscious purpose as well. This purpose serves to consciously connect higher and lower consciousness. Conscious Man would receive from above and give to below. Conscious Man lives a vertical reality connecting above and below within the quality of the moment while animal man only struggles with the duality taking place within earthly animal existence as a slave to natural laws normal for any creature of reaction.

It is one thing if society says you are nothing in accordance with its standards. It is meaningless. It is quite another to recognize your nothingness in relation to your conscious potential and your egoistic slavery which prevents you from opening to it. This is a necessary beginning for inner growth.

Humans have already moved far from what you posit. We have a space program and that is utterly essential if any aspect whatsoever of Earth life is survive in any way, shape or form into the future (barring speculative metaphysics, about which we must logically remain agnostic). Without the space program we can be the wisest and most wonderful Buddhalike characters and simply die out very quickly by Earth standards (noting that the planet is approaching old age - 4.6b years old with MUCH less than a billion years left of habitability - do the math).

So, even discounting cognitive advances in themselves, humans appear to be on track to fulfil at least one of their important special potentials.

As for acquired wisdom, I suspect that the people of this planet are in for the absolute mother of hard rides this century, with numerous catastrophes far beyond anything seen in modern history. Whomever is left over when the dust settles (probably mostly billionaires and their support) will hopefully be much chastened and wiser for the extremity of the experience. The only worry is how quickly people forgot the lessons of Hitler, Mao and Stalin suggests that significant gains tend to be temporary, eventually settling to very modest advancement. Such is the potted and uneven story of human advancement and growth (inner and outer).

We can't rely on theism either. After all, it was given its chance for a thousand years or more and religions routinely abused their power. So it's a limited "cure" at best, useful for and needed by some, but not others.

I don't think we can "rely" on any one thing. Diverse and pluralist global societies need a range of approaches to suit different kinds of people, just as we tend to do vocationally (we don't hire illiterate tough guys to perform admin work any more than we hire tiny, "princess" women to do bricklaying).

So there is no one meaning. I always disliked the pat answer "you create your own meaning", which is true up to a point but incomplete. In truth, our individual meanings tend to be very similar to those of many others of similar tendencies. We are part of great movements, great "tribes", but are often unaware of these impersonal metaphysical connections to our "unknown peers", but those connections are nonetheless real.

To a fair extent our meanings are foisted upon us and shaped by circumstance.

You seem to be equating progress of animal Man with human progress. Animal man defines progress through expansion while progress for human being is measured by the quality of a moment. Secularized animal Man seeks to destroy the natural inclination the experience the growth of human being or the quality of NOW in favor of expanding with more facts and animal abilities.

You are wrong. I made it VERY clear that both quality and quantity are involved. Please read what is said before responding.

[Nick_A]

Humans have already moved far from what you posit. We have a space program and that is utterly essential if any aspect whatsoever of Earth life is survive in any way, shape or form into the future (barring speculative metaphysics, about which we must logically remain agnostic). Without the space program we can be the wisest and most wonderful Buddhalike characters and simply die out very quickly by Earth standards (noting that the planet is approaching old age - 4.6b years old with MUCH less than a billion years left of habitability - do the math).

So, even discounting cognitive advances in themselves, humans appear to be on track to fulfil at least one of their important special potentials.

As for acquired wisdom, I suspect that the people of this planet are in for the absolute mother of hard rides this century, with numerous catastrophes far beyond anything seen in modern history. Whomever is left over when the dust settles (probably mostly billionaires and their support) will hopefully be much chastened and wiser for the extremity of the experience. The only worry is how quickly people forgot the lessons of Hitler, Mao and Stalin suggests that significant gains tend to be temporary, eventually settling to very modest advancement. Such is the potted and uneven story of human advancement and growth (inner and outer).

We can't rely on theism either. After all, it was given its chance for a thousand years or more and religions routinely abused their power. So it's a limited "cure" at best, useful for and needed by some, but not others.

I don't think we can "rely" on any one thing. Diverse and pluralist global societies need a range of approaches to suit different kinds of people, just as we tend to do vocationally (we don't hire illiterate tough guys to perform admin work any more than we hire tiny, "princess" women to do bricklaying).

So there is no one meaning. I always disliked the pat answer "you create your own meaning", which is true up to a point but incomplete. In truth, our individual meanings tend to be very similar to those of many others of similar tendencies. We are part of great movements, great "tribes", but are often unaware of these impersonal metaphysical connections to our "unknown peers", but those connections are nonetheless real.

To a fair extent our meanings are foisted upon us and shaped by circumstance.

You seem to be equating progress of animal Man with human progress. Animal man defines progress through expansion while progress for human being is measured by the quality of a moment. Secularized animal Man seeks to destroy the natural inclination the experience the growth of human being or the quality of NOW in favor of expanding with more facts and animal abilities.

You are wrong. I made it VERY clear that both quality and quantity are involved. Please read what is said before responding.

You deny the idea of objective quality so are limited to concepts of subjective quality which has little value for appreciating objective quality necessary for conscious evolution. Consequently everything turns in circles in accordance with secular understanding limiting us to material progress..

[Dubious]

Sure, everything is until it can't be. What of the journey from microbial Earth to complex and intelligent Earth is not to be considered in this equation? Are you so peeved with humanity that this amazing evolution Is not inspiring to you?

One can be inspired simply by the process which created it all without injecting any why's and wherefore's into its or our existence. Humans have a very bad and dangerous habit of projecting themselves into everything as if they had some special license to exist in the universe or some manifest destiny within it. These kinds of psychic distortions causes no end of problems. Maybe humanity would be more inspiring and more cautious if it didn't think of itself that way. I can be quite in awe of nature's processes especially so knowing there was no external or inherent command forcing it to be that way, forged instead within the webs of chance and randomness...and here we are just as likely to disappear by the same paradigm.

[Dubious]

How do you know there is no answer?

Where is the reason, the underlying reason, why there should even be one? If you're waiting for some internal revelation to do it as in "knowing thyself" that won't do either because everyone knows themselves differently if they bother to know at all.

I agree. The awakening power of sacred music is incredible and far surpasses what words are capable of. Words are good for explaining concepts but feeling the depth of ideas which touch the whole of oneself comes through art and especially music IMO

At least we agree on one fundamental.

[Davyboi]

Sure, everything is until it can't be. What of the journey from microbial Earth to complex and intelligent Earth is not to be considered in this equation? Are you so peeved with humanity that this amazing evolution Is not inspiring to you?

One can be inspired simply by the process which created it all without injecting any why's and wherefore's into its or our existence. Humans have a very bad and dangerous habit of projecting themselves into everything as if they had some special license to exist in the universe or some manifest destiny within it. These kinds of psychic distortions causes no end of problems. Maybe humanity would be more inspiring and more cautious if it didn't think of itself that way. I can be quite in awe of nature's processes especially so knowing there was no external or inherent command forcing it to be that way, forged instead within the webs of chance and randomness...and here we are just as likely to disappear by the same paradigm.

To be fair, us the human race do like to think we have the right to meddle in everything! If you are able to step out and look at the human race, as a whole..we are basically spoilt children! Who think we know it all..but we haven't really got a clue!

[Greta]

You seem to be equating progress of animal Man with human progress. Animal man defines progress through expansion while progress for human being is measured by the quality of a moment. Secularized animal Man seeks to destroy the natural inclination the experience the growth of human being or the quality of NOW in favor of expanding with more facts and animal abilities.

You are wrong. I made it VERY clear that both quality and quantity are involved. Please read what is said before responding.

You deny the idea of objective quality so are limited to concepts of subjective quality which has little value for appreciating objective quality necessary for conscious evolution. Consequently everything turns in circles in accordance with secular understanding limiting us to material progress..

Nope again. I do wish you'd read my actual posts rather than attributing me with unalterable clichés. Did I not speak about the progression from microbes to today's life? My view is actually the antithesis of the kind of Gouldian biological post modernism you attributed to me.

Certainly if you look at conflicts of interests between people and between humans and other species it is clear that, for the most part, quality is subjective. Each player wants their share, their influence, their control. So they battle it out and, in those battles, there are various rights and wrongs, but mostly it's about survival and thrival. One organism's bliss is another's pain and destruction.

I am not convinced that any of the political tribes are right, "in touch with the ultimate good" as you might say. I suspect that the "ultimate good" will eventually manifest no matter what we do. I don't see humanity as being in control of its destiny at all, constantly stymied by tragedies of the commons. The Earth and the Sun are entirely in charge of this show, leaving us critters mere slivers of freedom that we exaggerate, vaunt and are proud of while being guided like marionettes by forces far larger than us.

The Earth and the biosphere as wholes look to me as objective goods as they have opened up the possibility of continuing the journey far beyond the lifespan of our original planet, and for that humans are needed. However, if humans or their successors cannot become more wise then we might as well stay on Earth and wait to be fried. It would be an act of faith to awaken peaceful geology on other worlds to the suffering of biology, either believing it will all be for the best or that the pain doesn't matter. So, as stated, I see dual aims for humanity - to grow and to develop. I see the latter as working towards transcending the inherent barbarity and suffering inherent to biology.

[Greta]

Sure, everything is until it can't be. What of the journey from microbial Earth to complex and intelligent Earth is not to be considered in this equation? Are you so peeved with humanity that this amazing evolution Is not inspiring to you?

One can be inspired simply by the process which created it all without injecting any why's and wherefore's into its or our existence. Humans have a very bad and dangerous habit of projecting themselves into everything as if they had some special license to exist in the universe or some manifest destiny within it. These kinds of psychic distortions causes no end of problems. Maybe humanity would be more inspiring and more cautious if it didn't think of itself that way. I can be quite in awe of nature's processes especially so knowing there was no external or inherent command forcing it to be that way, forged instead within the webs of chance and randomness...and here we are just as likely to disappear by the same paradigm.

If you are in awe of nature, then you cannot help to be in awe of nature throwing humans into the mix. Our very existence tells us that nature is not what we thought it was - it is much, much more.

Consider all that tech we're building - that is nature too, as natural as trees, soil and air. It's less fundamental, and thus does not connect much to our evolved responses, so it doesn't provide the succour of "natural things" (thus I spend so much time hanging around plants and animals) but in terms of being part of the "general scheme of things" a PC or truck is utterly natural, emergent structures as part of the overall web. Who cares that they are built rather than born or hatched? Cells in our bodies build other cells and proteins all the time.

Human cognition, including the belief that they are simply divine (darling!), is an extraordinary emergence. Note that it has not happened on a young planet, but one on the verge of uninhabitability. If humans did not exist, this 3.8 billion year-old biosphere would still be close to death. It's just one billion years until all oceans have boiled off by our ageing star. Even the ocean temp increasing 5C-10C would be devastating to most sea life, so the oceans would be largely barren long before that time, a matter of mere millions of years. Life either moves to other worlds or it will disappear, and soon by cosmic time scales.

Consider the biosphere over geological time. From the perspective of geological time, the advent of humanity would look like the planet suddenly going to seed. The petals of the blooms transform into seeds. I suspect that humans are change agents and our creations (infused with human "informational genetics") are the seeds.

[AlexW]

@OP: Why are we here?

To really answer the question one would first have to define "we" (or rather "I") and "here" in an absolute way.
Only if "I" and "here" were the same for all of "us" could there be a common reason for "all" - as "all" would then collapse into "one".

If "I" and "here" depends on an individual state of mind (= an interpretation of what "I" am and what "here" is meant to be) then there can be no single one, distinct reason for existence - there will be as many reasons for existence as there are opinions / mindsets.