Free will is an epistemic problem

[Age]

Is this all you have got left now?

Yep. It's enough. You still can't justify your choice any better than a dice

Yes I DID and have already justified it. It is obviously just your prerogative to NOT read, NOT accept it, and/or just completely reject it all together. You, after all, did NOT even produce My 'justification' here, and then prove it incorrect. You just outright neglected it all together and did NOT want to bring it into focus here.

By the way, are you aware that if you used the ACTUAL words that I have written, and then continued to fight for YOUR SIDE and position in the EXACT SAME way as you were going to in the first place, then YOU still would have "WON" the argument. Using Me, you could have actually formed a sound, valid argument for your position, which is WHAT you WANTED from the outset anyway. It is a shame you changed and continually wanted to go off on this other tangent instead.

I was going to help you form that sound, valid argument for determinism, as the sound, valid argument for that is and was a very simple and easy one to formulate anyway.

[TimeSeeker]

Yes I DID and have already justified it. It is obviously just your prerogative to NOT read, NOT accept it, and/or just completely reject it all together. You, after all, did NOT even produce My 'justification' here, and then prove it incorrect.

So if you weren't justifying it to me then why did you even present a justification?

By the way, are you aware that if you used the ACTUAL words that I have written, and then continued to fight for YOUR SIDE and position in the EXACT SAME way as you were going to in the first place, then YOU still would have "WON" the argument. Using Me, you could have actually formed a sound, valid argument for your position, which is WHAT you WANTED from the outset anyway. It is a shame you changed and continually wanted to go off on this other tangent instead.

I am not here to construct or win arguments. I have no such desire.

I told you that I want to be less wrong. And I want the same for you.

[Age]

There would be a million other choices, which I could have chosen from, to choose. NOT just three.

But you didn't consider a million other options. You only considered 3.

Had you considered a million options - I imagine that it would've taken you a little longer to choose.
Had you considered a billion options - It would take you even longer.

Way to go captain obvious.

All you are arguing for is that you don't have a 3-sided dice, you have a 1000000000000000000000-sided dice.

I am NOT arguing for that at all. I was just stating an obvious fact. That is; there would be, if I bothered counting, a million different choices I could have chosen from.

Fine. Here is a your "free will" in Python: https://repl.it/repls/StunningHumiliatingFiletype

You are still avoiding the question. In fact, you are making the challenge that much harder for yourself.

Are you sure? I do NOT see any challenge at all and am finding this all rather very simple, easy, and rather amusing actually.

When I gave you two options you only had to justify WHY you've discarded 1 option.
You introduced a 3rd option. So now I am asking you to justify WHY you discarded the other 2.

Ah, so you have CHANGED the question NOW.

The answer to your NOW question IS; The REASON WHY I discarded the ONLY two choices you made for Me was because I WANTED to SHOW, with EVIDENCE of HOW I CAN make a FREE and WILLINGLY choice ALL on My lonesome. I FREELY made up another choice, and then I WILLINGLY chose it. Very simple and easy really, when YOU think about it.

That is; I do NOT need YOU to give nor make up the choices for Me. I CAN choose whatever choices that I then WANT to choose from.

The reason I did this was to SHOW, to the observers reading this, that I have THE ABILITY TO make free willingly choices.

If you insist on introducing a million options -

But I am NOT insisting on any thing like this at all.

I just showed that there was obviously NOT just three choices, which is what you are now implying, that I could have chosen from.

Any one looking from the Truly OPEN Mind would have SEEN and KNOWN that anyway.

I am just going to insist that you justify WHY you've discarded the other 999999 options.

For the EXACT SAME REASONS I have just provided here in the post, and that I have provided to you many times already.

Or maybe you want to justify how you discarded 999999999999999999999 other options?

Maybe I do and maybe I do NOT.

That choice is SOLELY up to Me, to make. Remember I have free will.

But if I WANTED to, and freely and willingly chose to, then I would say HOW I discarded ALL the other choices that I could have chosen from was because I did NOT want to go through ALL of them. I was HAPPY with the FIRST choice that I FREE and WILLINGLY made up, and CHOSE.

Either way - you aren't answering my question. WHY that ONE?!?!? WHY not any of the other 999999999999999999999?

Well considering this is your FIRST post with this NEW question, it comes across as a bit impatient that you are already writing that I am not supposedly answering your NEW question.

By the way, either way you pose the question the response and ANSWER is the same.

WHY that ONE?, and/or, WHY NOT the other ONE/s? Still provides the same outcome.

Hey I have an idea, considering I am NOT giving you the answer that you WANT Me to, how about you just provide the answer that you are looking for and are SEEKING out?

That would save a great deal of effort and time on your part.

[TimeSeeker]

Ah, so you have CHANGED the question NOW.

I rephrased it. I am asking you the exact same thing.

Asking why you chose 1 (out of 100) items is the same as asking you why you discarded 99. It is called contraposition.

The reason I did this was to SHOW, to the observers reading this, that I have THE ABILITY TO make free willingly choices.

Unless I predicted that a contrarian such as yourself would choose not to choose. So did you really make a free willing choice?
You are so predictable.

I just showed that there was obviously NOT just three choices, which is what you are now implying, that I could have chosen from.

And I am telling you that I don't care whether there are 2, 3, 1000 or N choices.

I am still asking you to explain HOW you choose 1 out of N options.
Which is the same as asking you HOW did you discard the (N-1) options.

That you DO choose is obvious. HOW you choose it is not.

That choice is SOLELY up to Me, to make. Remember I have free will.

Sure. But you don't. Because your free will is no different to a dice.


But if I WANTED to, and freely and willingly chose to, then I would say HOW I discarded ALL the other choices that I could have chosen from was because I did NOT want to go through ALL of them.
[/quote]
But you don't know why you made the choice. So you can't tell me how.

I was HAPPY with the FIRST choice that I FREE and WILLINGLY made up, and CHOSE.

Can you really call it a choice if you only gave yourself one option?

1 of N where N=1 is 1 of 1. It's not a choice.

[Age]

Yes I DID and have already justified it. It is obviously just your prerogative to NOT read, NOT accept it, and/or just completely reject it all together. You, after all, did NOT even produce My 'justification' here, and then prove it incorrect.

So if you weren't justifying it to me then why did you even present a justification?

WHAT?????

You REALLY do NEED to read WHAT I ACTUALLY WRITE far more thoroughly.

WHERE did I say that I was not justifying it to you?

In WHAT part of what I actually wrote lead you to even being assuming that that was the case?

By the way, are you aware that if you used the ACTUAL words that I have written, and then continued to fight for YOUR SIDE and position in the EXACT SAME way as you were going to in the first place, then YOU still would have "WON" the argument. Using Me, you could have actually formed a sound, valid argument for your position, which is WHAT you WANTED from the outset anyway. It is a shame you changed and continually wanted to go off on this other tangent instead.

I am not here to construct or win arguments. I have no such desire.

I told you that I want to be less wrong. And I want the same for you.

Less wrong about WHAT exactly?

WHAT is IT that you BELIEVE you are WRONG about exactly?

Let us look at that and I will tell WHERE you can be MORE less wrong, that is; if I can of course.

But honestly if you seriously WANT to be less wrong, then stop making assumptions and having beliefs about what IS RIGHT. It is them after all that IS preventing you from being less wrong.

[TimeSeeker]

WHERE did I say that I was not justifying it to you?

In WHAT part of what I actually wrote lead you to even being assuming that that was the case?

It was the part where you insisted that you had justified it sufficiently, even though I told you that you hadn't.

If you were indeed justifying it to me - then I get to decide the criteria for sufficiency, no? Since you insisted that the criteria for sufficiency had been met - I could only conclude that you were not justifying it to me.

Since you are the only other person in the conversation. I concluded that YOUR criteria for sufficiency were met. Because my criteria for sufficiency have not been met. That is - you projected your sufficiency onto me.

Less wrong about WHAT exactly?

WHAT is IT that you BELIEVE you are WRONG about exactly?

Future predictions. As demonstrated above - I PREDICTED that you aren't justifying your choices to me.

[Age]

Ah, so you have CHANGED the question NOW.

I rephrased it. I am asking you the exact same thing.

Asking why you chose 1 (out of 100) items is the same as asking you why you discarded 99. It is called contraposition.

The reason I did this was to SHOW, to the observers reading this, that I have THE ABILITY TO make free willingly choices.

Unless I predicted that a contrarian such as yourself would choose not to choose. [/quote]

WHAT is with the assuming again, which by the way you are so far of being right you could NOT be any MORE wrong. So much for supposedly being less wrong.

So did you really make a free willing choice?
You are so predictable.

I just showed that there was obviously NOT just three choices, which is what you are now implying, that I could have chosen from.

And I am telling you that I don't care whether there are 2, 3, 1000 or N choices.

I am still asking you to explain HOW you choose 1 out of N options.
Which is the same as asking you HOW did you discard the (N-1) options.

That you DO choose is obvious. HOW you choose it is not.

Well it should be obvious by now. I have told you ENOUGH times already. If, however, you are UNABLE to see it, then the REASON for that has already been explained to you many times also. The reason WHY you CAN NOT see HOW I choose is OBVIOUSLY because you BELIEVE that it is NOT even possible.

That choice is SOLELY up to Me, to make. Remember I have free will.

Sure. But you don't. Because your free will is no different to a dice.


But if I WANTED to, and freely and willingly chose to, then I would say HOW I discarded ALL the other choices that I could have chosen from was because I did NOT want to go through ALL of them.

But you don't know why you made the choice. So you can't tell me how.

I was HAPPY with the FIRST choice that I FREE and WILLINGLY made up, and CHOSE.

Can you really call it a choice if you only gave yourself one option?

1 of N where N=1 is 1 of 1. It's not a choice.

So, it has come down to this, and this is your argument;
I tell you WHY I made a choice by giving you the reason WHY.
You say, But you don't know why you made the choice.
I say, But I just told you WHY.
You then either say, But you don't know why you made a choice, or, can you really call it a choice?

LISTEN, can you HEAR this? I made a choice because of the very reason WHY, I have already told you. NOW, you write THAT reason down AND pick it to pieces if you WANT but do NOT just write stuff what you assume is the case. Also, I did NOT have just one option. Remember you gave me two? And, I said that I had a million others to choose from also.

Remember you are one of those types of people with very strong held BELIEFS, and it is THOSE BELIEFS that are distorting the way you are able to look at and see things. You obviously do NOT have a clear vision of what is being written and said here.

[TimeSeeker]

WHAT is with the assuming again, which by the way you are so far of being right you could NOT be any MORE wrong. So much for supposedly being less wrong.

But I am not wrong. Or right. You still haven't explained to me how you made the 1 out of N choice.

You explained (justified? rationalized?) it to yourself. A bunch of times. I told you that your explanation is insufficient to me. I told you how it's insufficient: you can't justify why you discarded all the other N-1 options.

And you keep repeating yourself as if saying the same thing 100 times over is somehow going to work. For somebody who claims to be trying to learn to communicate you sure only care to talk to yourself...

You haven't given me the REASON for your choice. You only keep pointing out that you made a choice.

I KNOW and ACCEPT that you have made a choice. You chose to reject Mathematics. I am asking WHY?

"Because I can" is not an answer. Maybe you BELIEVE that it's an answer?

[Age]

WHERE did I say that I was not justifying it to you?

In WHAT part of what I actually wrote lead you to even being assuming that that was the case?

It was the part where you insisted that you had justified it sufficiently, even though I told you that you hadn't.

If you were indeed justifying it to me - then I get to decide the criteria for sufficiency, no? Since you insisted that the criteria for sufficiency had been met - I could only conclude that you were not justifying it to me.

Since you are the only other person in the conversation. I concluded that YOUR criteria for sufficiency were met. Because my criteria for sufficiency have not been met. That is - you projected your sufficiency onto me.

But WHAT was being justified or not was in relation to YOUR QUESTION to Me why did I even present a justification.

YOU WROTE; So if you weren't justifying it to me then why did you even present a justification?

If you ACCEPT OR NOT ACCEPT a justification, then that is one thing. If, however, you ask me WHY DID I EVEN PRESENT A JUSTIFICATION here in regards to if they are not being justified to you, then I will say I am justifying it to you of course AS IN I AM PRESENTING THEM TO YOU. Whether they are justifying to you is a WHOLE other matter.

It seems a rather very foolish thing to expect that just because you are NOT accepting what the other is presenting to you, that you would then question them about why are they EVEN presenting it to you.

The obvious reason WHY I present a justification to you IS to see whether you will accept it or reject it.

Less wrong about WHAT exactly?

WHAT is IT that you BELIEVE you are WRONG about exactly?

Future predictions. As demonstrated above - I PREDICTED that you aren't justifying your choices to me.

I did ask you; WHAT is IT that you BELIEVE you are WRONG about exactly?

So you BELIEVE you are WRONG about YOUR PREDICTIONS, is this correct now?

You are aware we have the exact same prediction here right?

That is; you will NOT accept My reasoning.

[TimeSeeker]

If you ACCEPT OR NOT ACCEPT a justification, then that is one thing. If, however, you ask me WHY DID I EVEN PRESENT A JUSTIFICATION here in regards to if they are not being justified to you, then I will say I am justifying it to you of course AS IN I AM PRESENTING THEM TO YOU. Whether they are justifying to you is a WHOLE other matter.

The obvious reason WHY I present a justification to you IS to see whether you will accept it or reject it.

So you aren't justifying it to me you are justifying it to yourself? That's what I said!

By the very fact you are calling it a 'justification' before I have accepted it!

That is; you will NOT accept My reasoning.

You didn't offer any reasoning. You said you chose because you have free will and you can choose anything you want.
That't not an answer. Or at least - it is not an answer worth uttering because any one of us can do the exact same thing as you did.

And so you keep derailing the conversation and refusing to answer. WHY did you discard MY options in favour of your option?

The rest of your outbursts are not worth addressing.

[TimeSeeker]

It seems a rather very foolish thing to expect that just because you are NOT accepting what the other is presenting to you, that you would then question them about why are they EVEN presenting it to you.

Is it foolish? I imagine the reason you present me with your reasoning is so that I can give you corrective feedback? So that I can hold you accountable to MY standards for justification?

If you don't want me to to scrutinise your justification then why even bother presenting it to me? Hold yourself accountable to your own standards in the privacy of your own head.

[Age]

WHAT is with the assuming again, which by the way you are so far of being right you could NOT be any MORE wrong. So much for supposedly being less wrong.

But I am not wrong. Or right. You still haven't explained to me how you made the 1 out of N choice.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was suggesting that you were assuming about.


You explained (justified? rationalized?) it to yourself. A bunch of times. I told you that your explanation is insufficient to me. I told you how it's insufficient: you can't justify why you discarded all the other N-1 options.[/quote]

So, this is your "logical reasoning" now.
You can NOT justify why you discarded all the other options. BUT, I will continue to ask you WHY you discarded all the other options?

That my friends IS EXACTLY how much the belief-system completely distorts these human beings to any logical reasoning at all.

The BELIEF in this human being is so STRONG that there is just no way it is impossible to give A REASON WHY, but they will keep asking for one, because they believe that when they can prove that the other can NOT provide a reason WHY that they then believe that they have WON the argument.

And you keep repeating yourself as if saying the same thing 100 times over is somehow going to work.

Have you been taking any notice of what has been actually happening here?

You are asking Me the EXACT SAME questions over and over again, of which I answer them, because unlike you I answer the actual questions asked of Me.

Any one can go back over and writings and see just how many questions of mine you do NOT answer, and how many of yours I answer.

For somebody who claims to be trying to learn to communicate you sure only care to talk to yourself...

Well do you have any advice for Me? Or, do you want to just express negative criticism, which is of NO help to any one really.

You haven't given me the REASON for your choice. You only keep pointing out that you made a choice.

WHAT has actually happened here is for ALL to look at and see.

If ANY one else thinks/beliefs that I have NOT given the REASON for My choice, then they are FREE to point that out to Me.

I KNOW and ACCEPT that you have made a choice. You chose to reject Mathematics. I am asking WHY?

You do KNOW you come across as nearly in tears because you BELIEVE wholeheartedly that I have rejected mathematics (with a small m)?

You really do HAVE alzhiemers, am I right?

NO person, without alzhiemers, would still say this same thing over and over again. especially AFTER I have specifically written about it sinking into you, which for you, I will, once again repeat and write: I DID NOT make the choice I did because I REJECTED mATHEMATICS.

"Because I can" is not an answer. Maybe you BELIEVE that it's an answer?

I will say this for the last time. I made the choice I DID for two REASONS.

1. So that I can SHOW what free will actually IS.
2. Free will IS the ABILITY TO make a choice.

I asked you previously to define 'free will', you unfortunately are incapable of doing so, therefore to me 'free will IS the ABILITY TO make a choice.

I SHOWED not just that I CAN make a choice but also SHOWED exactly HOW I did it COMPLETELY freely AND willingly, without any of choices being necessary.

[TimeSeeker]

1. So that I can SHOW what free will actually IS.
2. Free will IS the ABILITY TO make a choice.

I asked you previously to define 'free will', you unfortunately are incapable of doing so, therefore to me 'free will IS the ABILITY TO make a choice.

I don't care about defining it. Nor did I ask you to define it. Nor did I ask you to demonstrate what it is. We all have this thing you have - the ability to make choices.

In attempt to communicate with you and understand how your mind works I am asking you WHY you made the choice that you made.

I SHOWED not just that I CAN make a choice but also SHOWED exactly HOW I did it COMPLETELY freely AND willingly, without any of choices being necessary.

You didn't! You showed me the RESULT of your free will. You didn't explain HOW you got there.

You didn't explain HOW, and IF you evaluated all the options in front of you.
You didn't explain the criteria by which you assessed which options are desirable, and which options are undesirable.
You didn't explain WHY each option is unsuitable for your NEEDS. And you didn't explain WHY the option that you did choose is.

All you said is "I chose what I chose because I chose it. Fuck you!"

OK, dice. Chill out

[Age]

If you ACCEPT OR NOT ACCEPT a justification, then that is one thing. If, however, you ask me WHY DID I EVEN PRESENT A JUSTIFICATION here in regards to if they are not being justified to you, then I will say I am justifying it to you of course AS IN I AM PRESENTING THEM TO YOU. Whether they are justifying to you is a WHOLE other matter.

The obvious reason WHY I present a justification to you IS to see whether you will accept it or reject it.

So you aren't justifying it to me you are justifying it to yourself? That's what I said!

By the very fact you are calling it a 'justification' before I have accepted it!

But, as I just explained to you, that was NOT what was in question. What was in question, was what was in YOUR question, and that was: WHY are you even presenting them here?

You really do NOT see what is actually happening here, do you?

That is; you will NOT accept My reasoning.

You didn't offer any reasoning. You said you chose because you have free will and you can choose anything you want. [/quote]

Well you certainly managed to twist that around to suit in and fit in with your own distorted beliefs and views of things.

I did NOT say the above.

That't not an answer. Or at least - it is not an answer worth uttering because any one of us can do the exact same thing as you did.

YES, have you got it?

Because ANY human being can MAKE ANY CHOICE that they so choose to make, then WHAT does that mean?

And so you keep derailing the conversation and refusing to answer. WHY did you discard MY options in favour of your option?

But you have said I can NOT provide an answer to this question, therefore rendering an answer as impossible.

So, WHY the continual questioning of some thing that even YOU yourself BELIEVE is an impossibility?

The rest of your outbursts are not worth addressing.

Good. Saves Me replying also.

[TimeSeeker]

But, as I just explained to you, that was NOT what was in question. What was in question, was what was in YOUR question, and that was: WHY are you even presenting them here?

You really do NOT see what is actually happening here, do you?

I think I have a clue and a strategy

I see it and I recognise that you lack the knowledge to recognise that it is exactly the same question. It is because you are ignorant you think it's a different question.

I am just rephrasing it until you recognise it for what it is... Until (or if) it makes sense to you.