ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

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Veritas Aequitas
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ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

BERLIN — The European Court of Human Rights says an Austrian woman’s conviction for calling the prophet of Islam a pedophile didn’t breach her freedom of speech.

The Strasbourg-based ECHR ruled Thursday that Austrian courts had “carefully balanced her right to freedom of expression with the right of others to have their religious feelings protected.”

The woman in her late 40s, identified only as E.S., claimed during two public seminars in 2009 that the Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to a young girl was akin to “pedophilia.” A Vienna court convicted her in 2011 of disparaging religious doctrines, ordering her to pay a 480-euro ($547) fine, plus costs. The ruling was later upheld by an Austrian appeals court.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 5d62525747
In respect of the EU - of the supposedly Enlightened West - this is the most stupid judgment I have ever come across.

Jesus Christ and the founders of other religions had been mocked left, right and center but there is no case of protecting the feelings of their religious followers who had complained.
Why this special case of the Prophet of Islam?

This is a case which prove my thesis that religions [especially theistic] has more to do with the desperate psychological impulses of the follower than there is a real God.

The contrast and control is the approach in which Buddhism recognized the psychology related to the feelings and sufferings [Four Noble Truths] associated with religiosity to deal with the internal feelings of desperation arising from an existential crisis.

Certain Muslims are like small children and cry-babies seeking the court to protect their feelings. They should be man enough to take care and be responsible in handling their own feelings and weaknesses.

Should the court protect religious feelings?
Your views on the above?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

An interesting video comment on the above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcCkQwySCz0

Freedom of Speech is one the most fundamental human rights.
If someones' offended feeling is more superior to another's freedom of speech, then we do not have freedom of speech at all.

Another video on the same subject;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps8iwcxaXV0
TimeSeeker
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am In respect of the EU - of the supposedly Enlightened West - this is the most stupid judgment I have ever come across.
How did you determine that THIS instance of revocation of freedom of speech (e.g censorship) is "stupid", but your proposed censorship of Islamic ideology isn't? viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25319#p379692

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am Jesus Christ and the founders of other religions had been mocked left, right and center but there is no case of protecting the feelings of their religious followers who had complained.
Why this special case of the Prophet of Islam?
The question doesn't follow the observation. Did other religions go to court over the mockery of their founders? No? Why not?
They could. They CHOSE not to. That is what equality means in so far as the legal system is concerned.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am This is a case which prove my thesis that religions [especially theistic] has more to do with the desperate psychological impulses of the follower than there is a real God.
Equivocation. The psychological impulses e.g emotional distress e.g instincts are real. They are brain processes.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am The contrast and control is the approach in which Buddhism recognized the psychology related to the feelings and sufferings [Four Noble Truths] associated with religiosity to deal with the internal feelings of desperation arising from an existential crisis.
Yes. What Buddhism and Stoicism preach is the same. It boils down to "Harden the fuck up!"
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am Certain Muslims are like small children and cry-babies seeking the court to protect their feelings. They should be man enough to take care and be responsible in handling their own feelings and weaknesses.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am Should the court protect religious feelings?
Your views on the above?
Why stop there? Should the court protect ANY feelings? Should the laws protect you from feeling intimidated when I say "I am going to kill you"? I am just saying it - I am not doing it. Freedom of speech!

And if my words turn to actions then - be a man and handle your own physical safety! Take care of your own weaknesses.

Should the court protect psychological safety? e.g intimidation.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:38 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 am In respect of the EU - of the supposedly Enlightened West - this is the most stupid judgment I have ever come across.
How did you determine that THIS instance of revocation of freedom of speech (e.g censorship) is "stupid", but your proposed censorship of Islamic ideology isn't? viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25319#p379692
I do not believe in the absolutely absolute, thus not in absolute freedom of speech.

I stated it is stupid due to the non-application of rationality and optimal wisdom in the judgment.

That judgment re Freedom of Speech was made against the person who rationalized the Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile in marrying a young girl of 6 and doing 'foreplay' with her till consummating the marriage at age 9. It is very rational to conclude such an act is that of a pedophile viewed from the current perspective.
The Prophet Muhammad was an exemplar for ALL Muslims to adopt till eternity. Surely acts that qualify as pedophilia should not be linked to an exemplar of morality.

Note, I DID NOT insist in banning the Quran or any of the Islamic texts nor stopping anyone from writing/discussing/debating about Islam.

What I am advocating is to deter [through foolproofs and a voluntarily basis] the practice of Islam, i.e. against the absolute freedom in the practice of religions. I have advocated the weaning-off of ALL religiosity [especially organized ones] for spirituality-proper.

The rest of your posts as with the above are from a too narrow and shallow minded view.
TimeSeeker
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 am I do not believe in the absolutely absolute, thus not in absolute freedom of speech.
I do. No Harm. No death. No injury. No loss of individual freedom. No individual loss of self-ownership and self-determinism. Those are absolutely absolute TO ME and I reciprocate them to all.

Naturally - you may disagree with me, so try and rob me of any of those and see what happens. Hint: I WILL use violence if needed. ;)
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 am What I am advocating is to deter [through foolproofs and a voluntarily basis] the practice of Islam, i.e. against the absolute freedom in the practice of religions. I have advocated the weaning-off of ALL religiosity [especially organized ones] for spirituality-proper.
Shame. I am advocating for the absolute reduction of harm. In all of its manifestations! Whether physical harm as inflicted by the practitioners of religions; or loss of individual freedoms as inflicted by the sanctimonious who think they understand how to fix society for all of us.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 am The rest of your posts as with the above are from a too narrow and shallow minded view.
You keep insinuating that when clearly you are the one who keeps forgetting to compute the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or Nth order consequences of the things you preach, as well as the opportunity cost of sub-optimal choices. Starting to think it's your way of dismissing any and all valid criticism ;)

Simply. I am with Ben Franklin on this one: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

You could say I am religious about Liberty.

Secondly. I am an engineer, an economist and an investor and so efficiency and big-picture thinking is key. So given the choice of solving "religious harm" and malaria. I am going for the latter "evil".

Quit fighting windmills Don Quixote!
surreptitious57
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by surreptitious57 »

TimeSeeker wrote:
I am advocating for the absolute reduction of harm. In all of its manifestations
You are advocating for universal non reciprocal altruism then. How exactly will you achieve this
How will you eradicate free will and the freedom of anyone to make their own immoral choices
TimeSeeker
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by TimeSeeker »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:01 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
I am advocating for the absolute reduction of harm. In all of its manifestations
You are advocating for universal non reciprocal altruism then. How exactly will you achieve this
How will you eradicate free will and the freedom of anyone to make their own immoral choices
Fuck altruism. I am not doing it for you. I am doing it for me! Completely selfish reason - self-preservation.

The thing that is MOST LIKELY to kill any one of us (myself included) is on this list: http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheet ... s-of-death. So that is where I want my taxes to be spent to leverage economies and efficiencies of scale! Funding research to solve THOSE problems!

I am appealing to YOUR self-preservation instinct! If you don't even have that - well. Fuck. I guess I've miscalculated your instincts.

Natural selection doesn't favour altruism.
surreptitious57
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by surreptitious57 »

TimeSeeker wrote:
I am advocating for the absolute reduction of harm

Completely selfish reason - self preservation
Self preservation and the absolute reduction of harm are mutually incompatible though
You want to survive then you might have to harm something or it may harm you instead
surreptitious57
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by surreptitious57 »

TimeSeeker wrote:
Natural selection doesnt favour altruism
Nor does it favour the absolute reduction of harm

Why do you think apex predators are at the top of the food chain
They are there because of their ability to inflict maximum harm
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 am I do not believe in the absolutely absolute, thus not in absolute freedom of speech.
I do. No Harm. No death. No injury. No loss of individual freedom. No individual loss of self-ownership and self-determinism. Those are absolutely absolute TO ME and I reciprocate them to all.

Naturally - you may disagree with me, so try and rob me of any of those and see what happens. Hint: I WILL use violence if needed. ;)
You are fucking your own self.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: ECHR Protects Religious Feelings?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:34 am
TimeSeeker wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 am I do not believe in the absolutely absolute, thus not in absolute freedom of speech.
I do. No Harm. No death. No injury. No loss of individual freedom. No individual loss of self-ownership and self-determinism. Those are absolutely absolute TO ME and I reciprocate them to all.

Naturally - you may disagree with me, so try and rob me of any of those and see what happens. Hint: I WILL use violence if needed. ;)
You are fucking your own self.
Probability and risk management. You don’t get it...

To stick to the metaphor: We are both getting fucked - only I have chosen a significantly smaller cock up my ass. And I am using lubricant.

By focusing on the quantifiable and pertinent risks to my well-being! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_of ... _principle

It is the polar opposite of being "narrow minded" ;)

From your own data terrorism killed 150000 people in 18 years. That is 8333 people a year from an Earth population of 7.5 billion.

So the probability of me dying in the hands of terrorists each year is 0.000001? So even IF you were 100% efficient and successfully "solved all religious evil" then ALL you would have achieved is reduce my risk of dying by 0.000001?

All I am pointing out is that I already have a SOLUTION which reduces my risk by 0.001. That is - it's 1000 times MORE effective than what you are SELLING. It's called a seatbelt.

You are an insurance salesman and you can't even tell...
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