Comparing philosophies, creationism is the best.

[TimeSeeker]

If we take the 'we' to always mean human beings here, then the reason we are NOT perfect is NOT because we are not perfect but because we, ourselves, say we are NOT perfect.

The Universe, Itself, does not give one iota if we behave like absolute devils and wipe ourselves out or if we behave like perfect angels and live forever more. The Universe is around for long enough that if we wipe ourselves out then another intelligent enough creature will come into being (evolve into existence), and then the Universe, Itself, will get what It wants from them.

OK, by the same rationale then the universe doesn't give one iota if we say that it is 'perfect' or 'imperfect'? The universe is whatever it is.

Human beings KNOW intrinsically that it is WRONG to pollute the air and the water that we NEED for our continual survival, but we keep polluting anyway. We KNOW it is stupid and NOT the perfect thing to do.

OK, but you also like your comforts, no? Electricity, internet, manufactured goods, convenience stores, supermarkets, hospitals, technology.
You also said that you enjoy living in 2018 and wouldn't go back in time - which I took to mean that you like social progress?
So you like the COMFORTS of social progress, but you don't like the SIDE-EFFECT of social progress (pollution, over-crowding, poverty, cultural friction)

So... which comforts are you willing to give up in order to reduce side-effects? Electricity? Transportation? Animal products?

But we also KNOW we can improve ourselves,

Well, that's just a truism

Obviously we can improve ourselves. The evidence is 5000 years of human and social progress. The question is HOW do we continue improving ourselves?

We need to learn right from wrong so that we KNOW the difference.

Well that IS the hard part, isn't it? KNOWING the difference?

Is electricity right or wrong?
Is pollution resulting from making electricity right or wrong?

ALL of this is happening in absolute perfection, only we do NOT recognize and see that perfection always. We only say we are NOT perfect only because we THINK we are. NOT because we KNOW we are.

OK, I don't follow this line of reasoning.

If we are perfect then we don't need to improve ourselves.
But you say that we can improve ourselves - so then we aren't perfect?
But at the same time you like progress, but you don't like pollution?
So are we imperfect or do we only SAY that we are imperfect?
Should we continue or reverse progress?

I hope I have somewhat successfully explained how Everything is perfect. And, how it is only we who says things are NOT perfect.

OK, then can't we just say that everything is perfect and be done with it then?

I'll ask a far simpler question: Look at the world. Given the status quo that you see before you - what would you change and why?

[Age]

If we take the 'we' to always mean human beings here, then the reason we are NOT perfect is NOT because we are not perfect but because we, ourselves, say we are NOT perfect.

The Universe, Itself, does not give one iota if we behave like absolute devils and wipe ourselves out or if we behave like perfect angels and live forever more. The Universe is around for long enough that if we wipe ourselves out then another intelligent enough creature will come into being (evolve into existence), and then the Universe, Itself, will get what It wants from them.

OK, by the same rationale then the universe doesn't give one iota if we say that it is 'perfect' or 'imperfect'? The universe is whatever it is.

Have you answered the question already? If so, then was that with an objective True and Right answer, or was that just with your own personal subjective answer? Or, did you answer it for me by assuming that that would be my answer?

If you want to KNOW my answer, then I agree.

Human beings KNOW intrinsically that it is WRONG to pollute the air and the water that we NEED for our continual survival, but we keep polluting anyway. We KNOW it is stupid and NOT the perfect thing to do.

OK, but you also like your comforts, no?
Electricity, internet, manufactured goods, convenience stores, supermarkets, hospitals, technology.

These things yes i like.

You also said that you enjoy living in 2018 and wouldn't go back in time - which I took to mean that you like social progress?

I did NOT say i enjoy living in 2018 and would not go back in time. What i did say was, I would not prefer to be anywhere else in any other time.

Jumping from what i actually wrote and said, to thinking i said something else, which you then took to mean something else again is NOT really remaining OPEN and seeing (understanding) what I am actually writing down AND saying.

Firstly, if any one likes "social progress" or not, then does NOT matter at all. "Social progress" cannot NOT happen. If, however, that "progress" is actual 'progress', in the sense ofgradually improving, or if it is 'progress', just in the sense of getting nearer to achieving or completing something because the two can be two completely different things. So, when you use the word 'progress', what do you mean?

So you like the COMFORTS of social progress, but you don't like the SIDE-EFFECT of social progress (pollution, over-crowding, poverty, cultural friction)

Did you, can you, notice how you TRIED TO answer the question, FOR ME? You have again made an ASSUMPTION in you by thinking that would be my answer.

My answer is;
Yes, i PARTLY like the comforts of "social progress" if 'progress' is gradually improving.
NO, i do NOT like the comforts of "social progress" if 'progress' continues down this WRONG slope to achieving or completing our demise, which it is heading NOW.
YES, i fully like the comforts of "social progress" AFTER we have changed, for the better, and we are 'progressing' by not just gradually improving but by exponentially improving, in the RIGHT direction, to achieving or completing our True potential. That is; being the True Creator of our lives and creating the True life that we ALL Truly WANT, to live in, for ourselves.

So... which comforts are you willing to give up in order to reduce side-effects? Electricity? Transportation? Animal products?

See how you have once again assumed some thing? You are assuming that I am thinking a certain way. You are also assuming that those things are bad or WRONG. You are also assuming that I would say that those things are bad or WRONG.

We do NOT have to give up all of those things at all. We just NEED to change, for the better, in order to SEE HOW we can still have those things without ANY negative side-effects taking place. Remember WHAT IS in agreement by ALL, decides if those things are WRONG or NOT.

There are a few things here, which you will see and understand AFTER you begin changing for the better. These things are;

KNOWING how to distinguish between what is RIGHT in Life, and, what is WRONG in life. Then,
KNOWING how to KNOW what is RIGHT in Life is actually RIGHT.
KNOWING what pollution-free energy already exists. And then,
KNOWING how to harness or use it correctly, permanently.

BUT ALL these things happen in a particular set order. They can NOT be rushed nor changed around because ALL of this is happening in the absolute perfection of the Universe.

But we also KNOW we can improve ourselves,

Well, that's just a truism

What will be found is everything I am leading to IS a Truism.

Obviously we can improve ourselves. The evidence is 5000 years of human and social progress. The question is HOW do we continue improving ourselves?

I have already just explained 'improving'. And, I already explained HOW previously.

HOW to properly continue to improve ourselves, exponentially, in the RIGHT direction, IS to be truly Honest, Open, and Willing (Wanting) to change for the better. For the RIGHT reasons. That IS HOW.

We need to learn right from wrong so that we KNOW the difference.

Well that IS the hard part, isn't it? KNOWING the difference?

NO. KNOWING happens almost instantaneously, when you KNOW HOW to find the correct, True and Right answers. With the KNOW-HOW ALL of this will be very simply and very EASILY done and fully understood. There is NOTHING HARD about it, except of course looking at one's own WRONG and BAD behaviors in LIfe can been seen to be HARD. But looking at those bad and wrong behaviors that ALL us adult human beings do DO IS necessary in order to be able to change, for the better.

Is electricity right or wrong?[/quote]

Electricity in and of itself is neither a right or wrong thing. Electricity is just a human being construct. Dreamed, imagined, invented, and then created.

Is pollution resulting from making electricity right or wrong?

Well if pollution leads to killing us human beings or not letting us live anymore and the same for "ALL?" life on earth, then I will allow you to ASSUME what I will answer NOW.

If a human being is alive, then that means, by definition, they WANT to live, (unless of course they are prevented from killing themselves). So, if we human beings WANT to keep living, then whether if some thing that is leading to our demise is right or wrong, i think, would be self-explanatory.

But, if you are still curious as to what my answer is, then the answer is WRONG. Pollution resulting from ANY thing IS WRONG. By definition 'pollution' means causing adverse changes that prevents success or development. Pollution, by definition, is harmful to us. But you may be thinking of another or a better definition for 'pollution'?

Pollution, to me, is obviously wrong.

ALL of this is happening in absolute perfection, only we do NOT recognize and see that perfection always. We only say we are NOT perfect only because we THINK we are. NOT because we KNOW we are.

OK, I don't follow this line of reasoning.

If we are perfect then we don't need to improve ourselves.

If what we are doing is causing our demise, then we NEED to change, (improve?) ourselves, that is; of course only IF we WANT to continue living.

But you say that we can improve ourselves - so then we aren't perfect?

I obviously got misunderstood last few times.

Hopefully i have better explained about 'improve' in regards to ourselves? If not, then feel free to ask ANY OPEN questions at all.

What some people call "progress" means those things that are some times generally known as "creature comforts", which we human beings construct. They like to refer them as "improvements" also. To me if some thing is leading to or causing our demise then they are NOT improvements and that is NOT progress.

So, when you say that i say that we can improve ourselves this is what I mean, which we can now look at this in three ways;
1. If human beings are creating their, and other life's, demise, then human being are NOT perfect, in that sense.
2. If, and when, however, human beings can recognize this, and recognize the fact that what they are actually doing is WRONG and more importantly WHY it is WRONG, then they can CHANGE, and improve, for the better. If they can see that they are NOT perfect, which most adults already KNOW is True, then having that ABILITY is perfect.

These two ways are looking from the subjective human being perspective of things.

3. NOW, looking from the Truly objective, Real and united collective I perspective of things. The CHANGE that human beings WILL make IS the ABSOLUTE PERFECTION part.

But at the same time you like progress, but you don't like pollution?

Yes, hopefully now better explained AND better understood. Again, if you are still unclear of what I am saying, then just ask for clarification. Remember it is inability to communicate properly and succinctly that is causing the misunderstanding. Thus the reason I am here in this forum just learning how to communicate BETTER.

We NEED to come together to find agreement on the definition of the words we are going to use in a discussion, prior to the actual discussion taking place if we are going to gain Full and True understanding. You just needed to clarify the definition of the words 'progress' and 'improve' to better understand where I am coming from and what it is that I am actually saying, and meaning.

One of the root causes of miscommunication and misunderstanding, (thus disagreements, disputes, fighting, wars, et cetera) it could be argued, is just the confusion caused by the many different types of interpretations of what the actual definition is/are for words, and terms. This confusion and conflict can just as easily happen inside one's head/body just as easily as it does with other heads/bodies.

So are we imperfect or do we only SAY that we are imperfect?

We only SAY we are imperfect. But this is the absolute perfection playing Its part in things. We have an inner KNOWING. This (inner) KNOWING telling us to SAY we are imperfect is what drives us to continually seek to progress, improve, and change, for the better. Saying, in 2018, 'We are imperfect and we NEED to change, for the better, if we Truly do WANT a better life for our children'. Thus, inevitably ourselves as One, which is our Real and True Self anyway, then that is absolute perfection in this period of "time" within the Universe.

Should we continue or reverse progress?

If you are still unsure of how I will respond now, then you will have to provide the definition of 'progress' you are using here. But i think/hope you get my "drift" now.

I hope I have somewhat successfully explained how Everything is perfect. And, how it is only we who says things are NOT perfect.

OK, then can't we just say that everything is perfect and be done with it then?

Perfection.

YES. Just let things happen as they are. Because Everything is going to end up where It will/was/IS, going to, anyway.

I'll ask a far simpler question: Look at the world. Given the status quo that you see before you - what would you change and why?

There is ONLY one thing that I have full and total control and power over and can really change anyway, and that thing is me.

So, I would change me, which I have done already. WHY? Because i wanted to become a better father for my children. In the process i, very unintentionally, came across a few insights that i think the rest of humanity might just be a little bit interested in.

Because of free will NO person has control over another, nor can they have full control over changing another. If a person does NOT want to change, themselves, then there is no thing that no one can do. The same as you can NOT teach another some thing if the other does NOT want to learn.

The only real thing any one can change IS them self.

Now that i have changed, the only real thing i can do now is show, by just Wanting to change, for the better, you, human beings, can very easily uncover a way of how to create a life, for your self, Self (selves) and Everything else, in which Everyone is living in a Truly stress-less, pollution-free and war-free world, without abuse whatsoever. That is; Creating and living in Truly peaceful and harmonious world together as One.

I can only show HOW this can be done. I can NOT make any one believe that it is True, I can not even make people think that it is even possible, nor can I make any one do any thing that they do not want to, nor do I want to make any one do any thing regarding any of this.

Human beings WILL just continually do what they WANT TO DO and as they so please, as they have always done.

[TimeSeeker]

Have you answered the question already? If so, then was that with an objective True and Right answer, or was that just with your own personal subjective answer? Or, did you answer it for me by assuming that that would be my answer?

Probably, but I will repeat it again. Your 'perfect universe' is trying to kill is. Like it killed the dinosaurs.

Human beings KNOW intrinsically that it is WRONG to pollute the air and the water that we NEED for our continual survival, but we keep polluting anyway. We KNOW it is stupid and NOT the perfect thing to do.

OK, but you also like your comforts, no?
Electricity, internet, manufactured goods, convenience stores, supermarkets, hospitals, technology.

These things yes i like.

But you don't like their side-effects.

Access to such resources causes inequality. Because people in 1st world countries don't have to worry about their daily meal, their safety, their food and their education. At the same time - providing those things causes pollution.

I did NOT say i enjoy living in 2018 and would not go back in time. What i did say was, I would not prefer to be anywhere else in any other time.

Jumping from what i actually wrote and said, to thinking i said something else, which you then took to mean something else again is NOT really remaining OPEN and seeing (understanding) what I am actually writing down AND saying.

But you do want to live in a BETTER future, no? Knowing that your comforts have undesirable side-effects. How do we move forward?

Firstly, if any one likes "social progress" or not, then does NOT matter at all. "Social progress" cannot NOT happen. If, however, that "progress" is actual 'progress', in the sense ofgradually improving, or if it is 'progress', just in the sense of getting nearer to achieving or completing something because the two can be two completely different things.

No. They aren't different things.

In the last 200 years we have increased human life expectancy by 30 years and practically eliminated infant mortality: https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy
We have reduced global poverty by about 70%: https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty
World GDP has skyrocketed: https://ourworldindata.org/economic-growth
We have reduced illiteracy by about 70%: https://ourworldindata.org/global-rise-of-education
International trade is skyrocketing: https://ourworldindata.org/international-trade

All of these are things we have 'just achieved'. Is it progress? You get to decide how to label it...

NO, i do NOT like the comforts of "social progress" if 'progress' continues down this WRONG slope to achieving or completing our demise, which it is heading NOW.

Well you are cynical. Look at the graphs I showed you above. If you think this is the 'wrong' direction I am a little worried what you think the 'right' direction is...

YES, i fully like the comforts of "social progress" AFTER we have changed, for the better, and we are 'progressing' by not just gradually improving but by exponentially improving, in the RIGHT direction, to achieving or completing our True potential. That is; being the True Creator of our lives and creating the True life that we ALL Truly WANT, to live in, for ourselves.

Now I am even more worried. What changes are you proposing?

We do NOT have to give up all of those things at all. We just NEED to change, for the better, in order to SEE HOW we can still have those things without ANY negative side-effects taking place. Remember WHAT IS in agreement by ALL, decides if those things are WRONG or NOT.

Yes. Yes. I heard you. You are chanting CHANGE! CHANGE! But you aren't proposing WHAT needs to change. Give us some concrete examples?

There are a few things here, which you will see and understand AFTER you begin changing for the better. These things are;

KNOWING how to distinguish between what is RIGHT in Life, and, what is WRONG in life. Then,
KNOWING how to KNOW what is RIGHT in Life is actually RIGHT.

You think we don't know how to do that at the moment? Is Increasing human life expectancy RIGHT? Is increasing literacy levels RIGHT? Is increasing economic activity RIGHT? Is reducing human rights violations and violence RIGHT? Society IS doing all these things. See graphs above...

KNOWING what pollution-free energy already exists. And then,
KNOWING how to harness or use it correctly, permanently.

Ok, HOW do we meet the global demand for energy with 'pollution-free sources'. The technology is more expensive than coal. Who is going to foot the bill for this new stuff?

BUT ALL these things happen in a particular set order. They can NOT be rushed nor changed around because ALL of this is happening in the absolute perfection of the Universe.

OK. So if we just sit and wait then they will come to us?

What will be found is everything I am leading to IS a Truism.

Truisms are not useful.

I have already just explained 'improving'. And, I already explained HOW previously.

Yeah, but you said nothing and proposed nothing. All you said is 'They can NOT be rushed nor changed around because ALL of this is happening in the absolute perfection of the Universe". That's EXACTLY like saying 'God works in mysterious ways'!

HOW to properly continue to improve ourselves, exponentially, in the RIGHT direction, IS to be truly Honest, Open, and Willing (Wanting) to change for the better. For the RIGHT reasons. That IS HOW.

That is not a HOW. That is a WHAT. How do I BECOME 'open' (what do I need to change?) how do I BECOME honest (what do I need to change?), how do I become WILLING (what do I need to change?). There are just empty words - show me a plan of ACTION

NO. KNOWING happens almost instantaneously, when you KNOW HOW to find the correct, True and Right answers.

OK. But if 'knowing how to find the correct, True and Right answers'. doesn't happen instantly then it's the same thing?

With the KNOW-HOW ALL of this will be very simply and very EASILY done and fully understood. There is NOTHING HARD about it, except of course looking at one's own WRONG and BAD behaviors in LIfe can been seen to be HARD. But looking at those bad and wrong behaviors that ALL us adult human beings do DO IS necessary in order to be able to change, for the better.

But YOU can't even point out a 'bad AND wrong behaviours' so what is it that NEEDS TO CHANGE. How do you expect to change something you can't even identify? A problem defined is half-solved!

Is electricity right or wrong?[/quote]

But, if you are still curious as to what my answer is, then the answer is WRONG. Pollution resulting from ANY thing IS WRONG.

OK so how do you get electricity without pollution? How do you get food at your convenience store without pollution? How do you get economic growth without pollution?

By definition 'pollution' means causing adverse changes that prevents success or development. Pollution, by definition, is harmful to us. But you may be thinking of another or a better definition for 'pollution'?

Pollution, to me, is obviously wrong.

OK but pollution is YOUR FAULT. You said you like all those comforts that 2018 offers you! THAT is what is causing pollution. Offering you COMFORT!
And you also said you aren't willing to give up those COMFORTS. So you want to KEEP THE COMFORTS, but you want to REDUCE POLLUTION.

HOW?!?

If what we are doing is causing our demise, then we NEED to change, (improve?) ourselves, that is; of course only IF we WANT to continue living.

I mean sure. But again - your comforts... We managed hundreds of thousands of years without science and technology. That stuff only happened in the last 2-300 years. And when I asked you if you want to live in the past you said 'No'.

So you DON'T want to live in a world without pollution (say - 1100AD). And you don't want to give up your 2018 comforts. So what DO you want? You want to have your cake and eat it too?

What some people call "progress" means those things that are some times generally known as "creature comforts", which we human beings construct. They like to refer them as "improvements" also. To me if some thing is leading to or causing our demise then they are NOT improvements and that is NOT progress.

Well. Then I ask you again. Which of YOUR creature-comforts will you give up in 2018? Electricity? Transportation? Industrial farming? Clean water and sanitation?

So, when you say that i say that we can improve ourselves this is what I mean, which we can now look at this in three ways;
1. If human beings are creating their, and other life's, demise, then human being are NOT perfect, in that sense.
2. If, and when, however, human beings can recognize this, and recognize the fact that what they are actually doing is WRONG and more importantly WHY it is WRONG, then they can CHANGE, and improve, for the better. If they can see that they are NOT perfect, which most adults already KNOW is True, then having that ABILITY is perfect.

OK, but YOU don't even recognize HOW. You don't KNOW what needs to CHANGE. But you are pointing fingers at others?

Yes, hopefully now better explained AND better understood. Again, if you are still unclear of what I am saying, then just ask for clarification. Remember it is inability to communicate properly and succinctly that is causing the misunderstanding. Thus the reason I am here in this forum just learning how to communicate BETTER.

We NEED to come together to find agreement on the definition of the words we are going to use in a discussion, prior to the actual discussion taking place if we are going to gain Full and True understanding. You just needed to clarify the definition of the words 'progress' and 'improve' to better understand where I am coming from and what it is that I am actually saying, and meaning.

OK. You and I are here. Lets find agreement. What does society need to change to go in the 'RIGHT' direction?

One of the root causes of miscommunication and misunderstanding, (thus disagreements, disputes, fighting, wars, et cetera) it could be argued, is just the confusion caused by the many different types of interpretations of what the actual definition is/are for words, and terms. This confusion and conflict can just as easily happen inside one's head/body just as easily as it does with other heads/bodies.

Naturally. Words don't have objective meanings. Especially words like 'GOOD' and 'BAD'. They are human DESIRES. What we WANT and what we DON'T WANT. And so defining them is VERY hard. People have been trying for a LOOOONG time

If you are still unsure of how I will respond now, then you will have to provide the definition of 'progress' you are using here. But i think/hope you get my "drift" now.

Improving human welfare, while managing the economic externalities and long term costs of our progress.

YES. Just let things happen as they are. Because Everything is going to end up where It will/was/IS, going to, anyway.

You are a very confused person. You say 'let things happen' in one breath, and in another you say 'we must come together to agree'. What are we agreeing on? That we must let things just happen? WE ALREADY AGREE! That is what MOST people are doing!

So, I would change me, which I have done already. WHY? Because i wanted to become a better father for my children. In the process i, very unintentionally, came across a few insights that i think the rest of humanity might just be a little bit interested in.

Because of free will NO person has control over another, nor can they have full control over changing another. If a person does NOT want to change, themselves, then there is no thing that no one can do. The same as you can NOT teach another some thing if the other does NOT want to learn.

The only real thing any one can change IS them self.

Well. That's not true. You can influence others to change. You can build businesses/charities. You can influence other people's lives. You can invent things that improve other people's lives. You can help other people. You can help society by solving hard problems.

Maybe you haven't learned how to have broader positive impact on the world yet?

Now that i have changed, the only real thing i can do now is show, by just Wanting to change, for the better, you, human beings, can very easily uncover a way of how to create a life, for your self, Self (selves) and Everything else, in which Everyone is living in a Truly stress-less, pollution-free and war-free world, without abuse whatsoever. That is; Creating and living in Truly peaceful and harmonious world together as One.

OK, but you've changed yourself but you haven't changed your BEHAVIOUR. You still like your creature-comforts. Your creature-comforts still cause POLLUTION. Have you started depending on renewable energy? Have you reduced your carbon footprint? Have you contributed to the economy or social welfare?
Have you solved any social problems or uncovered new knowledge?

So if changing yourself has had no broader positive impact beyond yourself - what's the point?

[Age]

timeseeker,

Are you at all able to look at and discuss this NOT from the self-centered human being perspective?

From what you wrote you are completely missing the mark of what I am saying.

[TimeSeeker]

Are you at all able to look at and discuss this NOT from the self-centered human being perspective?

There is another perspective? A non-human one? OK

From what you wrote you are completely missing the mark of what I am saying.

So explain it better.

[Age]

Are you at all able to look at and discuss this NOT from the self-centered human being perspective?

There is another perspective? A non-human one? OK

YES

From what you wrote you are completely missing the mark of what I am saying.

So explain it better.

REMEMBER, that is exactly what I am learning to do here, in this forum.

Help me out a bit here. How do I explain to a whole planet of people that what they see and believe is true right, and correct IS not actually true, right, and correct?

How do I explain to you that the very thing that drives what you BELIEVE is progress IS the very thing that causes the destruction of your one and only planetary home, and thus eventually the demise of it and then obviously yourselves?

Imagine you live in the past when motor vehicles, airplanes, and computers could NOT even be imagined yet. But another person KNEW of them. How do you get past those people's BELIEFS that those things are an IMPOSSIBILITY before you could even start to EXPLAIN to them how it is them, themselves, who will start creating those things?

How could I 'EXPLAIN IT BETTER' to YOU, the one I KNOW who will be at the forefront of this. When you keep BELIEVING and insisting that these things are an IMPOSSIBILITY.

[TimeSeeker]

Are you at all able to look at and discuss this NOT from the self-centered human being perspective?

There is another perspective? A non-human one? OK

YES

So you aren't human? You have a brain like no other human has? You have perceptory powers like no other human has?

REMEMBER, that is exactly what I am learning to do here, in this forum.

Help me out a bit here. How do I explain to a whole planet of people that what they see and believe is true right, and correct IS not actually true, right, and correct?

How do I explain to you that the very thing that drives what you BELIEVE is progress IS the very thing that causes the destruction of your one and only planetary home, and thus eventually the demise of it and then obviously yourselves?

Imagine you live in the past when motor vehicles, airplanes, and computers could NOT even be imagined yet. But another person KNEW of them. How do you get past those people's BELIEFS that those things are an IMPOSSIBILITY before you could even start to EXPLAIN to them how it is them, themselves, who will start creating those things?

How could I 'EXPLAIN IT BETTER' to YOU, the one I KNOW who will be at the forefront of this. When you keep BELIEVING and insisting that these things are an IMPOSSIBILITY.

You learn their language.Then you translate your idea into their language.

For starters learn how I use the word 'believe'. It's not how you use it.

[Age]

There is another perspective? A non-human one? OK

YES

So you aren't human? You have a brain like no other human has? You have perceptory powers like no other human has?

REMEMBER, that is exactly what I am learning to do here, in this forum.

Help me out a bit here. How do I explain to a whole planet of people that what they see and believe is true right, and correct IS not actually true, right, and correct?

How do I explain to you that the very thing that drives what you BELIEVE is progress IS the very thing that causes the destruction of your one and only planetary home, and thus eventually the demise of it and then obviously yourselves?

Imagine you live in the past when motor vehicles, airplanes, and computers could NOT even be imagined yet. But another person KNEW of them. How do you get past those people's BELIEFS that those things are an IMPOSSIBILITY before you could even start to EXPLAIN to them how it is them, themselves, who will start creating those things?

How could I 'EXPLAIN IT BETTER' to YOU, the one I KNOW who will be at the forefront of this. When you keep BELIEVING and insisting that these things are an IMPOSSIBILITY.

You learn their language.Then you translate your idea into their language.

For starters learn how I use the word 'believe'. It's not how you use it.

HOW, do you use the word 'believe'?

[TimeSeeker]

HOW, do you use the word 'believe'?

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

I need to know what shared knowledge we have so that I can come up with an appropriate metaphor for 'belief.

[Age]

HOW, do you use the word 'believe'?

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

Yes I can. But I am NOT going to. You do NOT need to know any of this to answer THE simple question which is in direct relation to what you said.

I need to know what shared knowledge we have so that I can come up with an appropriate metaphor for 'belief.

You do NOT need to KNOW this. Just answer the question, especially since YOU said and wrote;

For starters learn how I use the word 'believe'. It's not how you use it.

SO, what I then did was ask you HOW, do you use the word 'believe'

But instead of just answering it you go on about some thing else instead.

You have the audacity to write; For starters learn how I use the word 'believe' AND 'It's not how you use it'. SO, FOR STARTERS in order to ACTUALLY learn HOW you use the word 'believe' I asked you for simple clarification.

Just answer the question. It really is not a hard one. Asking a human being how they use a word should be about one of the easiest things they can answer. ESPECIALLY when they have just stated; FOR STARTERS LEARN HOW I USE THE WORD 'BELIEVE'.

ALSO, You assert that you have some sort of amazing ability to KNOW how I use the word 'believe', and that how I use 'believe' is NOT how you use 'believes'. But this is NOT proven, yet. Until you ANSWER my question whether you REALLY KNOW is in doubt

[TimeSeeker]

HOW, do you use the word 'believe'?

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

Yes I can. But I am NOT going to. You do NOT need to know any of this to answer THE simple question which is in direct relation to what you said.

I need to know what shared knowledge we have so that I can come up with an appropriate metaphor for 'belief.

You do NOT need to KNOW this. Just answer the question, especially since YOU said and wrote;

For starters learn how I use the word 'believe'. It's not how you use it.

SO, what I then did was ask you HOW, do you use the word 'believe'

But instead of just answering it you go on about some thing else instead.

You have the audacity to write; For starters learn how I use the word 'believe' AND 'It's not how you use it'. SO, FOR STARTERS in order to ACTUALLY learn HOW you use the word 'believe' I asked you for simple clarification.

Just answer the question. It really is not a hard one. Asking a human being how they use a word should be about one of the easiest things they can answer. ESPECIALLY when they have just stated; FOR STARTERS LEARN HOW I USE THE WORD 'BELIEVE'.

ALSO, You assert that you have some sort of amazing ability to KNOW how I use the word 'believe', and that how I use 'believe' is NOT how you use 'believes'. But this is NOT proven, yet. Until you ANSWER my question whether you REALLY KNOW is in doubt

Well, it is not an easy question. You mistake the complex for the simple again.

So it is time for you to do some homework: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HLqWn5L ... -distances

I have the amazing ability to see that you don’t use it like I use it. Falsification.

You and I share no background knowledge and so I am not really interested in discussing metaphysics with you.

[Age]

HOW, do you use the word 'believe'?

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

Yes I can. But I am NOT going to. You do NOT need to know any of this to answer THE simple question which is in direct relation to what you said.

I need to know what shared knowledge we have so that I can come up with an appropriate metaphor for 'belief.

You do NOT need to KNOW this. Just answer the question, especially since YOU said and wrote;

For starters learn how I use the word 'believe'. It's not how you use it.

SO, what I then did was ask you HOW, do you use the word 'believe'

But instead of just answering it you go on about some thing else instead.

You have the audacity to write; For starters learn how I use the word 'believe' AND 'It's not how you use it'. SO, FOR STARTERS in order to ACTUALLY learn HOW you use the word 'believe' I asked you for simple clarification.

Just answer the question. It really is not a hard one. Asking a human being how they use a word should be about one of the easiest things they can answer. ESPECIALLY when they have just stated; FOR STARTERS LEARN HOW I USE THE WORD 'BELIEVE'.

ALSO, You assert that you have some sort of amazing ability to KNOW how I use the word 'believe', and that how I use 'believe' is NOT how you use 'believes'. But this is NOT proven, yet. Until you ANSWER my question whether you REALLY KNOW is in doubt

Well, it is not an easy question. You mistake the complex for the simple again.

Do you NOT know how to use a dictionary?

Also, so are you trying to tell us now that you use words but have NO understanding of WHAT the word means nor of HOW you are using that word?

So it is time for you to do some homework: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HLqWn5L ... -distances

You are continually expecting others to read links you provide as though they will have some magical answer to and for everything. You just through telling me in another thread how hard it is for you human beings to find answers and solve solutions to your problems.

I have the amazing ability to see that you don’t use it like I use it. Falsification.

YOU are the one who said it.

You and I share no background knowledge and so I am not really interested in discussing metaphysics with you.

Hang on!

You started off accusing me of NOT knowing how you use the word 'believe', which I will agree with. I ask THEE simple clarifying question; HOW do you use the word 'believe', which you will NOT answer, and NOW you end up saying what you say here, which to me has nothing whatsoever to do with HOW you use the word 'believe'.

Do you think or BELIEVE that the use of the word 'believe' is a metaphysics issue?

[TimeSeeker]

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

I don't use the word 'believe' like the dictionary tells me to use it.

Yes I can. But I am NOT going to. You do NOT need to know any of this to answer THE simple question which is in direct relation to what you said.

OK. Then I am not going to answer you.

Just answer the question. It really is not a hard one. Asking a human being how they use a word should be about one of the easiest things they can answer. ESPECIALLY when they have just stated; FOR STARTERS LEARN HOW I USE THE WORD 'BELIEVE'.

Yes. LEARN. I didn't say how long it will take you. At this rate - you have quite a bit of learning to do.

Do you NOT know how to use a dictionary?

What does a dictionary have to do with how I use my words?

Also, so are you trying to tell us now that you use words but have NO understanding of WHAT the word means nor of HOW you are using that word?

I have perfect understanding how I use my words. I don't know how to explain my use of my words simply.

You are continually expecting others to read links you provide as though they will have some magical answer to and for everything. You just through telling me in another thread how hard it is for you human beings to find answers and solve solutions to your problems.

You are continuously expecting knowledge to be pre-packaged for you.

You started off accusing me of NOT knowing how you use the word 'believe', which I will agree with. I ask THEE simple clarifying question; HOW do you use the word 'believe', which you will NOT answer, and NOW you end up saying what you say here, which to me has nothing whatsoever to do with HOW you use the word 'believe'.

Do you think or BELIEVE that the use of the word 'believe' is a metaphysics issue?

Yes.

[Age]

Can you give me some background in terms of what you've studied/read/done?

I don't use the word 'believe' like the dictionary tells me to use it.

"The" dictionary, any dictionary, does NOT tell you how to use any thing.

Every dictionary is just a guide to how words are sometimes defined and meant.

Yes I can. But I am NOT going to. You do NOT need to know any of this to answer THE simple question which is in direct relation to what you said.

OK. Then I am not going to answer you.

Saying this now seems rather contradictory, and a major shirking of responsibility, to what you said earlier. That is' for starters learn how I use the word 'believe'.

The best way for me to start, i thought, was to just ask you for clarification of how YOU use the word 'believe'. i thought YOU would be the best, and really the only one, who KNOWS exactly how you use the word 'believe'.

But obviously what i thought here was WRONG. You have just proven that YOU are not the best one to find out from, in regards to how YOU use words.

HOW do you now propose, for starters, I, start to, begin to learn how YOU use words, especially if you will not and can not explain yourself?

Just answer the question. It really is not a hard one. Asking a human being how they use a word should be about one of the easiest things they can answer. ESPECIALLY when they have just stated; FOR STARTERS LEARN HOW I USE THE WORD 'BELIEVE'.

Yes. LEARN. I didn't say how long it will take you. At this rate - you have quite a bit of learning to do.

Yes I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.

If you will NOT tell/teach me how you use words, then it will be a very, very long and slow tedious process trying to understand what it is exactly that you write here in this forum.

I wonder if YOU think any one WILL ever understand YOU if you NEVER explain to them how you use words?

Was it you who re-quoted the saying; If you do not know how to explain some thing simply, then you do not really understand it?

If you unable, or unwilling, to explain how you use words, then does that mean that you do not really understand them?

Do you NOT know how to use a dictionary?

What does a dictionary have to do with how I use my words?

Not much. By the looks of things here.

Some people go to the dictionary when they are using words, for clarity or for assistance. But then some others do NOT need assistance and clarity in using words because they already KNOW how to use them perfectly. Sorry i forgot to add in; 'they THINK' before "they already KNOW". I KNOW i will forever always need help and assistance in learning how to use words more succinctly and accurately, in my quest of learning how to communicate better. But this rather speaks for itself anyway, which i guess is the idea of words, and, in using them correctly.

Also, so are you trying to tell us now that you use words but have NO understanding of WHAT the word means nor of HOW you are using that word?

I have perfect understanding how I use my words. I don't know how to explain my use of my words simply.

Fair enough, and perfectly understood.

I have discussed above, and others have also discussed, about not be able to explain some thing simply.

However, how come you can have a 'perfect' understanding of how you use words, and thus you must have some sort of concept or sense of what the word 'perfect' means, BUT you can NOT even begin to understand how to relate that meaning 'perfect' with a meaning of 'absolute'?

Is there still NO way for those to words to come together and relate to each other?

You are continually expecting others to read links you provide as though they will have some magical answer to and for everything. You just through telling me in another thread how hard it is for you human beings to find answers and solve solutions to your problems.

You are continuously expecting knowledge to be pre-packaged for you.

That is NOT the case at all.

I might write in a way that that appears to you, and so you have leaped forward and jumped to that conclusion, obviously based on an assumption that you created, but I write in a way to evoke certain responses, of which you are just one of who is providing them for Me.

You started off accusing me of NOT knowing how you use the word 'believe', which I will agree with. I ask THEE simple clarifying question; HOW do you use the word 'believe', which you will NOT answer, and NOW you end up saying what you say here, which to me has nothing whatsoever to do with HOW you use the word 'believe'.

Do you think or BELIEVE that the use of the word 'believe' is a metaphysics issue?

Yes.

Thank you.

[TimeSeeker]

"The" dictionary, any dictionary, does NOT tell you how to use any thing.

Every dictionary is just a guide to how words are sometimes defined and meant.

You missed the point. How I MEAN to use the word "belief" is NOT in the dictionary. The dictionary notes COMMON uses of the word.
You remember how you accused me of "following the herd" - you are doing the same by using words based on how everybody else uses them.

Saying this now seems rather contradictory, and a major shirking of responsibility, to what you said earlier. That is' for starters learn how I use the word 'believe'.

It is what it is. I am still not going to answer you on those terms

The best way for me to start, i thought, was to just ask you for clarification of how YOU use the word 'believe'. i thought YOU would be the best, and really the only one, who KNOWS exactly how you use the word 'believe'.

And until you share my background knowledge/experience - you are unlikely to understand. I have no "diesel car" to offer you here.
My beliefs are tools.

But obviously what i thought here was WRONG. You have just proven that YOU are not the best one to find out from, in regards to how YOU use words.

OK, then go find out from "the best" on how I use words.

HOW do you now propose, for starters, I, start to, begin to learn how YOU use words, especially if you will not and can not explain yourself?

I can explain myself. I do not have the time to. I gave you reading instead.

If you will NOT tell/teach me how you use words, then it will be a very, very long and slow tedious process trying to understand what it is exactly that you write here in this forum.

Well, it will be along and tedious process when conversing WITH YOU. Which is why I am offering you reading where I am not willing to entertain the debate.

I wonder if YOU think any one WILL ever understand YOU if you NEVER explain to them how you use words?

Very easy. I don't engage with metaphysics with strangers unless I absolutely have to.

Was it you who re-quoted the saying; If you do not know how to explain some thing simply, then you do not really understand it?

If you unable, or unwilling, to explain how you use words, then does that mean that you do not really understand them?

I explained it simply. You didn't understand it. Because you lack the background knowledge to understand the simple explanation.

However, how come you can have a 'perfect' understanding of how you use words, and thus you must have some sort of concept or sense of what the word 'perfect' means, BUT you can NOT even begin to understand how to relate that meaning 'perfect' with a meaning of 'absolute'?

Because in this sense 'perfect' means 'complete'. So you can read: 'I have 'complete understanding of how I use the word'. 'complete absolute' is still a non-sensical phrase.

Is there still NO way for those to words to come together and relate to each other?

Maybe. If you can explain it.

That is NOT the case at all.

Then why do you expect simple answers to complex issues?