Do chimpanzees believe in God?

[A_Seagull]

Do chimpanzees believe in God?

Chimpanzees have intelligence and self awareness, so is it possible that they believe in God?

Since they lack a comprehensive language, they would not be able to have religion. But this would not preclude them from believing in a creator of all that is wonderful.

What do you think?

[Impenitent]

they throw their poop at it

-Imp

[Veritas Aequitas]

It is possible.
'SOME' chimpanzees [tamed and domesticated] could have a similar sort of neural algorithm that project an idea of 'God' onto their caretaker who provided them food on a daily basis and those who shower human love/affection onto to them.

Note the 'God' of the Cargo Cult.

The John Frum cult, one of the most widely reported and longest-lived, formed on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. This movement started before the war, and became a cargo cult afterwards. Cult members worshiped certain unspecified Americans having the name "John Frum" or "Tom Navy" who they claimed had brought cargo to their island during World War II and who they identified as being the spiritual entity who would provide cargo to them in the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cul ... rld_War_II

These people believe John Frum like a god.

[TimeSeeker]

I have posed this challenge over and over. According to the principle of superposition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle) a person's behaviour is a product of all sorts of variables: cultural upbringing, life goals, desires, emotional state etc.

If 'belief' is a material thing and it has a measurable and distinguishable causal effect on the belief-holder's behavior then the detection of belief is a valid empirical question.

And so as far as any of you are concerned another person's belief is in superposition to you: they are either a theist or an atheist.

If you think the notion of 'belief' is empirically testable/falsifiable then you should be able to take some measurement and determine what it means to 'believe in God'. Once we have such a measurement you can see what results it produces on chimpanzees.

[A_Seagull]

I have posed this challenge over and over. According to the principle of superposition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle) a person's behaviour is a product of all sorts of variables: cultural upbringing, life goals, desires, emotional state etc.

If 'belief' is a material thing and it has a measurable and distinguishable causal effect on the belief-holder's behavior then the detection of belief is a valid empirical question.

And so as far as any of you are concerned another person's belief is in superposition to you: they are either a theist or an atheist.

If you think the notion of 'belief' is empirically testable/falsifiable then you should be able to take some measurement and determine what it means to 'believe in God'. Once we have such a measurement you can see what results it produces on chimpanzees.

I think the only way to infer what a person believes is to compare the input data without the output data, in other words, the only way to tell what someone believes is to observe what they do and, to some extent, what they say.

But my question was more related (though I appreciate you taking the title question literally) to whether it is possible that chimpanzees believe in God. In other words, are the logical processes that led people to a belief in God also applicable to chimpanzees?

[A_Seagull]

It is possible.
'SOME' chimpanzees [tamed and domesticated] could have a similar sort of neural algorithm that project an idea of 'God' onto their caretaker who provided them food on a daily basis and those who shower human love/affection onto to them.

Note the 'God' of the Cargo Cult.

The John Frum cult, one of the most widely reported and longest-lived, formed on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. This movement started before the war, and became a cargo cult afterwards. Cult members worshiped certain unspecified Americans having the name "John Frum" or "Tom Navy" who they claimed had brought cargo to their island during World War II and who they identified as being the spiritual entity who would provide cargo to them in the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cul ... rld_War_II

These people believe John Frum like a god.

Actually I thought it was Prince Philip they revered, but maybe that was later on.

But you make a good point about the seemingly magical way in which zookeepers provide food for captive animals.

But perhaps it is also possible that free chimpanzees could appreciate the seemingly magical way that fruit grows on trees in the forest.

[Veritas Aequitas]

It is possible.
'SOME' chimpanzees [tamed and domesticated] could have a similar sort of neural algorithm that project an idea of 'God' onto their caretaker who provided them food on a daily basis and those who shower human love/affection onto to them.

Note the 'God' of the Cargo Cult.

The John Frum cult, one of the most widely reported and longest-lived, formed on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. This movement started before the war, and became a cargo cult afterwards. Cult members worshiped certain unspecified Americans having the name "John Frum" or "Tom Navy" who they claimed had brought cargo to their island during World War II and who they identified as being the spiritual entity who would provide cargo to them in the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cul ... rld_War_II

These people believe John Frum like a god.

Actually I thought it was Prince Philip they revered, but maybe that was later on.

But you make a good point about the seemingly magical way in which zookeepers provide food for captive animals.

But perhaps it is also possible that free chimpanzees could appreciate the seemingly magical way that fruit grows on trees in the forest.

It is possible for wild chimpanzees in the jungles but that is quite a way off.

Wild chimpanzees are driven more with their instincts [lower brain] for fruits and others.

On the other hand the "tamed" ones actively engaged their higher [cortical] with humans who shower them with attention and love [in some cases]. God is not likely if the caretakers are very cruel, maybe satan or the devil is possible.

Note;
Koko the gorilla expresses grief [using sign language] when she finds out her kitten, AllBall, has died.
https://youtu.be/CQCOHUXmEZg

[TimeSeeker]

I think the only way to infer what a person believes is to compare the input data without the output data, in other words, the only way to tell what someone believes is to observe what they do and, to some extent, what they say.

This is self-contradictory. What people do/say is the 'output data'.

[A_Seagull]

I think the only way to infer what a person believes is to compare the input data without the output data, in other words, the only way to tell what someone believes is to observe what they do and, to some extent, what they say.

This is self-contradictory. What people do/say is the 'output data'.

Oh I agree totally, but my point was that what people say cannot be taken at face value. It can only be accepted that they said it. What its intention was or the meaning that one takes away from it can be quite different from its literal meaning.

[QuantumT]

Chimpanzees have intelligence and self awareness, so is it possible that they believe in God?

No! The concept of a higher being and invisible concepts are so advanced, that those who possesses it are also advanced enough to create, invent and build. Chimpanzees do not possess those abilities, which means they are incapable of understanding the concept of divinity.

If you arrived to a flock of chimps in light and glory, would they bow to you? No of course not! They would not connect the light and glory to anything, they'd just be confused, even scared!

[A_Seagull]

Chimpanzees have intelligence and self awareness, so is it possible that they believe in God?

No! The concept of a higher being and invisible concepts are so advanced, that those who possesses it are also advanced enough to create, invent and build. Chimpanzees do not possess those abilities, which means they are incapable of understanding the concept of divinity.

I suspect that the abilities to which you refer are more to do with an absence of a comprehensive language than a lack of intellectual capability.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Chimpanzees have intelligence and self awareness, so is it possible that they believe in God?

No! The concept of a higher being and invisible concepts are so advanced, that those who possesses it are also advanced enough to create, invent and build. Chimpanzees do not possess those abilities, which means they are incapable of understanding the concept of divinity.

If you arrived to a flock of chimps in light and glory, would they bow to you? No of course not! They would not connect the light and glory to anything, they'd just be confused, even scared!

The OP point is so obvious that chimpanzees are certainly not able to believe in a God like humans do.
Thus we need to apply a bit of the Principle of Charity for discussion sake.

Chimpanzees are said to be 98% humans in DNA terms [1].
DNA wise the early humans had the potential to believe in a god but their idea of god was very crude. Then it evolve to polytheism, monotheism and the highest being the ontological God.

Whilst the chimpanzees are not being able to express the idea of god in language, I believe based on 1 above, there is some sort of neural algorithm that would put them in such a state where the conditions exists as in the tamed chimpanzees I mentioned above.

[TimeSeeker]

Oh I agree totally, but my point was that what people say cannot be taken at face value. It can only be accepted that they said it. What its intention was or the meaning that one takes away from it can be quite different from its literal meaning.

Indeed, that is the case but if one can take away different meanings from the ANSWER 'I believe in God', it begs the question. What does the question 'Do you believe in God?' mean?

[A_Seagull]

Oh I agree totally, but my point was that what people say cannot be taken at face value. It can only be accepted that they said it. What its intention was or the meaning that one takes away from it can be quite different from its literal meaning.

Indeed, that is the case but if one can take away different meanings from the ANSWER 'I believe in God', it begs the question. What does the question 'Do you believe in God?' mean?

According to Wikipedia: "Begging the question is a logical fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it." I don't see how 'begging the question' is relevant.

And as for your question: "What does the question 'Do you believe in God?' mean?"
What does the statement 'I believe in God mean?'

[TimeSeeker]

And as for your question: "What does the question 'Do you believe in God?' mean?"
What does the statement 'I believe in God mean?'

OK, but statements come AFTER questions, no?

So the proper order of things is question THEN statement.

And so what question does the statement "I believe in God" answer?

And so every STATEMENT begs a QUESTION.