What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

TimeSeeker wrote:
This is where we fundamentally disagree! Lambda calculus (programming languages) ARE the creation! It is its own living proof of its existence! Robots, Artificial Intelligence, Self-driving cars, any and all automata. They are human desires expressed as 'elaborated code'!
And the self directing mechanism inside a lavatory cistern--that floating ball cock? That is a human desire expressed as elaborated code.

As such I am reminded of the difference between on the one hand indoctrination, and on the other hand education. The human can express herself as indoctrinated subject and as educated subject.The ball cock mechanism is analogous to the indoctrinated subject. An educated ball cock mechanism if such were possible would make decisions (which I'd not like) such as refusing to float as instructed. Are you claiming that those much more sophisticated devices which you mentioned in your last post , things such as self driving cars maybe, have progressed to entering into their decisions, cultures of belief together with the attitude of a free subject as would an educated human?

"the attitude of a free subject" of course originates at an approximate time and place which we often call the European Renaissance. And also of course the Greeks. Is Lambda calculus culture-free?
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:24 pm Robots, Artificial Intelligence, Self-driving cars, any and all automata. They are human desires expressed as 'elaborated code'!
Yes they are. But observe the distinction.

"I would like to have an icecream" states a desire, but without me getting of my ass and getting an actual icecream, that is all my language is. A desire without follow-through.
Automata has the "agency" to follow through. Automata can bring about measurable change.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:24 pm And the self directing mechanism inside a lavatory cistern--that floating ball cock? That is a human desire expressed as elaborated code.
Yes, but the distinction between a cistern and a self-driving car are its degrees of freedom ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_o ... tatistics) ). A self-driving car has seen more world than my great grandmother - who never went further than 15km from her birth place her entire life.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:24 pm As such I am reminded of the difference between on the one hand indoctrination, and on the other hand education. The human can express herself as indoctrinated subject and as educated subject.The ball cock mechanism is analogous to the indoctrinated subject. An educated ball cock mechanism if such were possible would make decisions (which I'd not like) such as refusing to float as instructed. Are you claiming that those much more sophisticated devices which you mentioned in your last post , things such as self driving cars maybe, have progressed to entering into their decisions, cultures of belief together with the attitude of a free subject as would an educated human?
We are not quite there yet. And lucky us. Automata cannot set/adjust its own goals. It still operates within some well-defined limits, alas software bugs can still result in accidental human harm.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:24 pm "the attitude of a free subject" of course originates at an approximate time and place which we often call the European Renaissance. And also of course the Greeks. Is Lambda calculus culture-free?
Culture is a human concept. I can't even answer this question because I have no idea what a computer 'thinks'.

Like I said - this is a hypothetical thought experiment. Even if we were to invent a "dumb AI" that blindly pursues its well-defined goals, it still poses a threat to humans: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

TimeSeeker wrote:
Culture is a human concept. I can't even answer this question because I have no idea what a computer 'thinks'.
Well yes. Everything, for an idealist, is a human concept. In your opinion are mathematics or logic "divine melodious truths" or human concepts? Are they mind-dependent or mind-independent? This question is another way to ask the question asked by the OP.

Regarding computers 'thinking'.Does thinking (i.e.mind) always involve qualia such that you cannot know what a computer thinks?

I'd have thought that if a computer cannot be aware of quality it cannot think as well as a human.By "as well as " I refer especially to moral thinking and also to aesthetic thinking.
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 am Well yes. Everything, for an idealist, is a human concept.
Then in your language I am an idealist. In my language I call it Constructivist epistemology ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... istemology ).
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 am In your opinion are mathematics or logic "divine melodious truths" or human concepts? Are they mind-dependent or mind-independent? This question is another way to ask the question asked by the OP.
The very concepts of Knowledge and Truth are human concepts. And Human concepts are always mind-dependent. No. They aren't 'devine melodious truths'. They are just more precise truths than English. They are better TOOLS for expressing certain aspects of reality.
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 am Regarding computers 'thinking'.Does thinking (i.e.mind) always involve qualia such that you cannot know what a computer thinks?
Perhaps a better way to say this: I do not know how a computer "experiences" addition, counting and multiplication any more than I can tell whether you experience the color blue the same way that I do. But we have agreed that that particular color is CALLED 'blue' and we have agreed that particular simbol is called TWO. and TWO plus TWO is FOUR.
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 am I'd have thought that if a computer cannot be aware of quality it cannot think as well as a human.By "as well as " I refer especially to moral thinking and also to aesthetic thinking.
Qualia are a philosophical misnomer. They are just properties of the abstraction in our heads.

Morality and aesthetics are things that are difficult to express to a computer, BUT they are things that are not always difficult to TEACH to a computer. For example Netflix uses machine learning algorithms to recommend movies you might like based on your viewing habits.
The fact that it recommends more good movies than bad movies is a fact. HOW it works - that is difficult to explain. We don't actually know HOW these algorithms work. We just know that they do.

Here is a great video about this concept. I am sure you know what it means 'to count'. Counting, righ? 1,2,3,4,5.... everybody understands what it means. It's so damn obvious. Until you ask HOW do you count? Apparently some of us do it using our visual minds, some of us do it using our auditory part of our minds. The human mind is amazing and diverse :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4y0EUlU-Y
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

I don't think I have to provide much evidence here to convince you.

There is a conception of 'knowledge' and 'religion' that a few philosophers have made that goes like this: "Suppose that all human knowledge/truth/writing/history disappeared overnight. Everything that we can re-produce from first principles is Truth. Everything that we can't reproduce is religion".

That is pretty ironic. To this day we can't figure out how the Mayans, Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians did some of the stuff they did. We have some of their writing - we just can't read it. So we can't reproduce it. And so to think that knowledge/truth is somehow separate from the language used to express/narrate it is as naive an idea as the belief in "Objective truth".
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

TimeSeeker on qualia:
They are just properties of the abstraction in our heads.
Might it be useful to differentiate quantity and quality?

TimeSeeker:
To this day we can't figure out how the Mayans, Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians did some of the stuff they did. We have some of their writing - we just can't read it. So we can't reproduce it. And so to think that knowledge/truth is somehow separate from the language used to express/narrate it is as naive an idea as the belief in "Objective truth".
As Sapir-Whorf. I like it somewhat. Does linguistic determinism imply that there is no truth outside of the language that expresses it; or does linguistic determinism imply that we cannot know of any absolute truth? That's to say is LD atheist or agnostic.
Last edited by Belinda on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:24 am Might it be useful to differentiate quantity and quality?
Of course. Utility matters most to humans (I think) ;)

That is what Science is after - useful models. Not 'truth'. Philosophers pursue 'Truth" like christians pursue God.

If that is the paradigm we settle on (pragmatism) then I am happy to say that Mathematics is useful (for certain kinds of problems) and leave it at that.
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:27 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:24 am Might it be useful to differentiate quantity and quality?
Of course. Utility is all that matters :)

That is what Science is after. Not 'truth'. Philosophers pursue 'Truth" like christians pursue God.
Curiosity is essential to the philosopher's personality . The pursuit of truth moreover is essential to life not death. Christians are not all alike. Some Christians would rather obey : others would rather pursue truth.

Quality is the truth that moral philosophers seek. Is quantity the truth that mathematicians seek?
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:36 am Curiosity is essential to the philosopher's personality . The pursuit of truth moreover is essential to life not death.
Yeah, but first you have to survive to follow any pursuits (like truth-seeking). And we have survived far longer without philosophy than with it ;)

In either case - I am curious and I refuse to identify as a philosopher. I am a scientist.
Philosophy is a sterile word-game. I do not pursue truth. I pursue utility.
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:36 am Quality is the truth that moral philosophers seek. Is quantity the truth that mathematicians seek?
Quality of what? It sounds like a weasel word.
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

TimeSeeker:
Quality of what? It sounds like a weasel word.
True, quantity is transitive, so quality too should be transitive.

I think I'd remember the parsing which I was taught at school a long time ago. Adverbs modify verbs. 'Run fast' quantifies 'run' whereas 'run gracefully' qualifies 'run'.
Yeah, but first you have to survive to follow any pursuits (like truth-seeking). And we have survived far longer without philosophy than with it ;)

In either case - I am curious and I refuse to identify as a philosopher. I am a scientist.
Philosophy is a sterile word-game. I do not pursue truth. I pursue utility.
Is duration a virtue?

Utility: So as not to be a weasel word It's a word that needs to be transitive so that something utilises something else. I think I remember that either Sapir or Whorf described one specific language as including a preponderance of verbs it may have been Pueblo Indian or Hopi Indian.I like to draw a lesson from that and replace a noun like 'utility' with 'utilise' (s) (d) (ing).
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:16 pm Is duration a virtue?
It can be used to measure virtue in some contexts.

We are measuring the continuously-increasing duration of human life as a virtue (signifying that we are conquering illnesses and premature death)
The duration of peace-free time is a virtue etc (signifying that we are eliminating war).

Engineers call this Mean Time Between Failures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time ... n_failures
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:16 pm Utility: So as not to be a weasel word It's a word that needs to be transitive so that something utilises something else.
Science produces models of and about reality. Humans use these models to reason about reality. To predict/control the environment. It reduces down to this aphorism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

And it is in line with my adherence to Constructivist epistemology:
Constructivist epistemology is a branch in philosophy of science maintaining that scientific knowledge is constructed by the scientific community, who seek to measure and construct models of the natural world. Natural science therefore consists of mental constructs that aim to explain sensory experience and measurements.
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

'Time Between Failures' I do like this. I also like Constructivist epistemology, thanks.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

For those interested in the nature - or even the possibility - of objectivity, facts and truth, here are extracts from the Wikipedia article repeatedly recommended by TimeSeeker entitled 'All models are wrong'. (It's at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong). I'm reproducing this material to clarify the nature of our argument about objectivity.


"All models are wrong" is a common aphorism in statistics. It is generally attributed to the statistician George Box.

Quotations of George Box
The first record of Box saying "all models are wrong" is in a 1976 paper published in the Journal of the American Statistical Association.[1] The paragraph containing the aphorism is below.

Since all models are wrong the scientist cannot obtain a "correct" one by excessive elaboration. On the contrary following William of Occam he should seek an economical description of natural phenomena. Just as the ability to devise simple but evocative models is the signature of the great scientist so overelaboration and overparameterization is often the mark of mediocrity.

Box repeated the aphorism in a paper that was published in the proceedings of a 1978 statistics workshop.[2] The paper contains a section entitled "All models are wrong but some are useful". The section is copied below.

Now it would be very remarkable if any system existing in the real world could be exactly represented by any simple model. However, cunningly chosen parsimonious models often do provide remarkably useful approximations. For example, the law PV = RT relating pressure P, volume V and temperature T of an "ideal" gas via a constant R is not exactly true for any real gas, but it frequently provides a useful approximation and furthermore its structure is informative since it springs from a physical view of the behavior of gas molecules.

For such a model there is no need to ask the question "Is the model true?". If "truth" is to be the "whole truth" the answer must be "No". The only question of interest is "Is the model illuminating and useful?".

Comments and discussions
There have been varied comments and discussions about the aphorism. For instance, the statistician Sir David Cox has commented as follows.[6]

... it does not seem helpful just to say that all models are wrong. The very word model implies simplification and idealization. The idea that complex physical, biological or sociological systems can be exactly described by a few formulae is patently absurd. The construction of idealized representations that capture important stable aspects of such systems is, however, a vital part of general scientific analysis and statistical models, especially substantive ones, do not seem essentially different from other kinds of model.

Burnham & Anderson, in their much-cited book on model selection,[7] state the following (§1.2.5).

A model is a simplification or approximation of reality and hence will not reflect all of reality. ... Box noted that “all models are wrong, but some are useful.” While a model can never be “truth,” a model might be ranked from very useful, to useful, to somewhat useful to, finally, essentially useless.

The statistician J. Michael Steele has argued somewhat against the aphorism as follows.[8]

If I say that a map is wrong, it means that a building is misnamed, or the direction of a one-way street is mislabeled. I never expected my map to recreate all of physical reality, and I only feel ripped off if my map does not correctly answer the questions that it claims to answer. My maps of Philadelphia are useful. Moreover, except for a few that are out-of-date, they are not wrong.

The statistician Andrew Gelman countered that, saying in particular the following.[9]

I take his general point, which is that a street map could be exactly correct, to the resolution of the map.

... The saying, “all models are wrong,” is helpful because it is not completely obvious....

This is a simple point, and I can see how Steele can be irritated by people making a big point about it. But, the trouble is, many people don’t realize that all models are wrong.

The statistician David Hand made the following statement in 2014.[10]

In general, when building statistical models, we must not forget that the aim is to understand something about the real world. Or predict, choose an action, make a decision, summarize evidence, and so on, but always about the real world, not an abstract mathematical world: our models are not the reality—a point well made by George Box in his oft-cited remark that “all models are wrong, but some are useful”.

In 2011, a workshop on model selection was held in The Netherlands. The name of the workshop was "All models are wrong...".[11]

Additionally, the aphorism has been recommended to be a core part of the Applied Statistician's Creed.[12]

Historical antecedents
Although the aphorism seems to have originated with George Box, the underlying idea goes back decades, perhaps centuries. For example, in 1960, Georg Rasch said the following.[13]

… no models are [true]—not even the Newtonian laws. When you construct a model you leave out all the details which you, with the knowledge at your disposal, consider inessential…. Models should not be true, but it is important that they are applicable, and whether they are applicable for any given purpose must of course be investigated. This also means that a model is never accepted finally, only on trial.

Similarly, in 1947, John von Neumann said that "truth … is much too complicated to allow anything but approximations".[14]


I think there are questions to ask of those who claim that all models are wrong.

1 Could a model of reality be 'right' - correct, accurate, complete, or true? Is that a possibility? If not, then why say 'all models are wrong'?

2 What would a 'right' model of reality be like? How much 'inessential' detail would it have to contain? What does 'the whole truth' - or even just 'truth' - look like? And if that question is silly, why is 'approximation to the truth' a meaningful idea?
TimeSeeker
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm 1 Could a model of reality be 'right' - correct, accurate, complete, or true? Is that a possibility? If not, then why say 'all models are wrong'?
Because the probability of model error is not separate from the cost of an error manifesting. And so in that regard a less precise model that fails non-critically may be more desirable than a more precise model that fails critically.

A 99.99% reliable car that explodes 0.01% of the time and kills all its occupants is less desirable than a 95% reliable car that experiences 5% engine failure.

Better the devil you know. This is in accordance with the precautionary principle ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle )
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm 2 What would a 'right' model of reality be like? How much 'inessential' detail would it have to contain? What does 'the whole truth' - or even just 'truth' - look like? And if that question is silly, why is 'approximation to the truth' a meaningful idea?
One that meets the criterion of antifragility ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragility )
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

TimeSeeker wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:10 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm 1 Could a model of reality be 'right' - correct, accurate, complete, or true? Is that a possibility? If not, then why say 'all models are wrong'?
Because the probability of model error is not separate from the cost of an error manifesting. And so in that regard a less precise model that fails non-critically may be more desirable than a more precise model that fails critically.

A 99.99% reliable car that explodes 0.01% of the time and kills all its occupants is less desirable than a 95% reliable car that experiences 5% engine failure.

Better the devil you know. This is in accordance with the precautionary principle ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle )
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm 2 What would a 'right' model of reality be like? How much 'inessential' detail would it have to contain? What does 'the whole truth' - or even just 'truth' - look like? And if that question is silly, why is 'approximation to the truth' a meaningful idea?
One that meets the criterion of antifragility ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragility )
1 The question is: Could a model of reality be 'right' - correct, accurate, complete, or true? Is that a possibility? Can you address that question?
2 Against what criterion could a model be in error? After all, all models are wrong.
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