Humans are fundamentally evil - according to Science

[TimeSeeker]

When I say that non existence is infinitely preferable to existence I only mean philosophically

And that would be a performative contradiction. Because first you need to be alive to be able to do any philosophy.

And so if you are busy philosophising instead of suiciding then by the same principle: you prefer philosophizing to non-existence

Unless, of course - you can provide a framework for non-existential philosophy. But you can't do that while you are alive so...

[surreptitious57]

I can provide a framework for a non existential philosophy but it will only be possible after my death
And it would reference the ending of all suffering for ever and total acceptance of my non existence

I was at one with the Universe before I was conceived and will be at one with it again when I die and this time for ever
This life is an interruption between those two wonderful states but it will pass very quickly and so therefore is bearable

[TimeSeeker]

This life is an interruption between those two wonderful states but it will pass very quickly and so therefore is bearable

Yeah... you are regressing again.

If you feel so interrupted/inconvenienced to be taken away from your wonderful state... you know where the exit is.

The choice has not been taken away from you. And while you continue to choose this state instead of your 'wonderful state'. You don't get to say that you prefer the other state.

[surreptitious57]

The other state was free of all suffering and so was an infinitely superior one
This state involves suffering but since it is only temporary it can be tolerated

[Dontaskme]

I can provide a framework for a non existential philosophy but it will only be possible after my death
And it would reference the ending of all suffering for ever and total acceptance of my non existence

I was at one with the Universe before I was conceived and will be at one with it again when I die and this time for ever
This life is an interruption between those two wonderful states but it will pass very quickly and so therefore is bearable

I'm personally in a state where there is no me to suffer, there is just raw apparent suffering, which is just a knot in the belly that's there whether I like it or not.
I can ignore the unpleasant knot and just be comfortablly numb, knowing there's nothing I can do to stop it, for there is no me here to stop it anyway.. that's where I'm at right now.

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[TimeSeeker]

The other state was free of all suffering and so was an infinitely superior one
This state involves suffering but since it is only temporary it can be tolerated

Sorry. In line with Expected Value theory (economics) this is irrational.

NOT getting fucked in the ass is infinitely better than getting fucked in the ass. But since you are only getting fucked for 5 minutes - you are willing to 'tolerate it'.

Any amount of time you 'tolerate' getting fucked in the ass means you like it. Because you have the CHOICE to opt out at any point!

Free will!

Or you are just a very indecisive person.

[Dontaskme]

The other state was free of all suffering and so was an infinitely superior one
This state involves suffering but since it is only temporary it can be tolerated

Sorry. In line with Expected Value theory (economics) this is irrational.

Sorry, but no one gives a fuck about Expected Value fricking theory ( economics) what ever the heck that's supposed to mean, means diddly sweet FA to me.
It's what you feel inside that counts, nothing else matters in the grand scheme of things. Who is to tell you how to feel but you yourself.

surreptitious57 knows how he feels and that's okay, ain't nothing going to fix how you feel, you just feel what ever you feel.

What surreptitious57 is talking about has nothing to do with what you are implying below..it has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

I understand what S57 is talking about. It's nothing to do with choice or free will to choose, its about leaving that choice up to nature, hes talking about dying the natural way and not caring about the event when it happens, its up to nature. Getting fucked in the arse has nothing to do with this at all. What a weird thing to say.

NOT getting fucked in the ass is infinitely better than getting fucked in the ass. But since you are only getting fucked for 5 minutes - you are willing to 'tolerate it'.

Any amount of time you 'tolerate' getting fucked in the ass means you like it. Because you have the CHOICE to make it stop at ANY POINT.

Free will!

Getting screwed in the arse is an invasion of your private personal space, you can put an end to that as a natural response to intrusion of your rights.

But natural dying is not up to us to be honest. That's like screwing your own arse.

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[TimeSeeker]

Sorry, but no one gives a fuck about Expected Value fricking theory ( economics) what ever the heck that's supposed to mean, means diddly sweet FA to me.

Ummm. You do?

Given a cup of shit and a cup of icecream - which one would you eat? I am guessing the icecream. Why? Because you don't like eating shit!
You have higher expected utility from eating icecream than you do from eating shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_ ... hypothesis

So if you have higher expected utility from not-living (eating icecream) than from living (eating shit)? You have a choice!

It's what you feel inside that counts, nothing else matters in the grand scheme of things. Who is to tell you how to feel but you yourself.
surreptitious57 knows how he feels and that's okay, ain't nothing going to fix how you feel, you just feel what ever you feel.
What surreptitious57 is talking about has nothing to do with what you are implying below..it has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Of course it counts. Just don't lie to yourself that you love eating shit, when you can stop any time and grab the icecream instead!

I understand what S57 is talking about. It's nothing to do with choice or free will to choose, its about leaving that choice up to nature,

Nature doesn't make any choices. Hence - why I said "indecisive".

hes talking about dying the natural way and not caring about the event when it happens, its up to nature.

THE natural way? There are so many "natural ways" to die - which one are you referring to? Cancer? Stroke? Alzheimers? HIV/AIDS? Pulmonary embolism? Heart attack? Ebola? Dysentery? Drug-resistant Tuberculosis? Pneumonia? Menengitis? Malaria? Marburg disease? Rabies? Smallpox? Legionnaires' disease? Getting mauled by a bear? Sepsis? Food poisoning? Falling down the stairs and becoming paralyzed - then years later...? Do you want me to keep going?

Getting fucked in the arse has nothing to do with this at all. What a weird thing to say.
Getting screwed in the arse is an invasion of your private personal space, you can put an end to that as a natural response to intrusion of your rights.

Well. Suppose you can put an end to the 'intrusion of your rights' and yet you choose not to. One would infer a tacit approval - no?

But natural dying is not up to us to be honest. That's like screwing your own arse.

There is no such thing as 'natural dying'. Most of it sucks!

[Dontaskme]

Sorry, but no one gives a fuck about Expected Value fricking theory ( economics) what ever the heck that's supposed to mean, means diddly sweet FA to me.

Ummm. You do?

Given a cup of shit and a cup of icecream - which one would you eat? I am guessing the icecream. Why? Because you don't like eating shit!
You have higher expected utility from eating icecream than you do from eating shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_ ... hypothesis

So if you have higher expected utility from not-living (eating icecream) than from living (eating shit)? You have a choice!

Again, this has nothing to do with what S57 is talking about.

As I understand it, you like to get all philosophical about knowledge, and that's fine, thank god for google when we don't know something we can just log onto the inner net and as if by magic all our unknowing becomes known again.

As for choices in regard to eating shit or icecream ..that's a no brainer, but I fail to see what this has got anything to do with what S57 is referring to.
I actually think you are making too much of a meal of what is a common normal feeling among most human beings, who are not afraid to admit it to themselves. Doesn't mean that people everywhere will opt out by topping themselves. Many do, but many others don't feel it an absolute necessecity.

Of course it counts. Just don't lie to yourself that you love eating shit, when you can stop any time and grab the icecream instead!

It's a poor distinction, its your distinction and thats your groove, but don't expect others to agree with it.

Nature doesn't make any choices. Hence - why I said "indecisive".

Nature aka life, aka no thing decides...from the fictional knowledge level of understanding.

Humans aka fictional characters within the dream of separation don't get to decide anything...for one very good reason, go figure!

THE natural way?

YES, the natural way, when life says its time to exit the pop stand. Life dictates when it is time to go. Death will come only when its meant to come and not one second before.
Killing yourself by suicide is not natural.

Well. Suppose you can put an end to the 'intrusion of your rights' and yet you choose not to. One would infer a tacit approval - no?

Your just over thinking this, its a typical activity of the philosopher to do this, to anal-ise everything to death instead of keeing life simply pious and sacred.

There is no such thing as 'natural dying'. Most of it sucks!

I strongly disagree. But each to their own.

Animals have been dying silently and gracefully for millions of years.



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[TimeSeeker]

Again, this has nothing to do with what S57 is talking about.

Why don't you let S57 speak for him/herself on matters of his/her opinions? I don't think you are a mind reader.

As I understand it, you like to get all philosophical about knowledge, and that's fine, thank god for google when we don't know something we can just log onto the inner net and as if by magic all our unknowing becomes known again.

Then you clearly don't 'understand it'. I like to get all realistic and practical about knowledge. I USE and APPLY knowledge to serve my own goals.
Sure - you can log onto Google and you will acquire a lot of "know THAT" knowledge. But you aren't going to acquire any "know HOW" knowledge.

You are almost definitely not going to acquire any GOALS from Google. You either decide what you want for yourself, or other people will do it for you.

And so you get to DECIDE whether you like eating shit or icecream.

As for choices in regard to eating shit or icecream ..that's a no brainer, but I fail to see what this has got anything to do with what S57 is referring to.

And thus you fail to spot your own ignorance. WHY is it a "no-brainer"? Maybe do you do ENJOY (a feeling, an emption, a pleasurable sensation, an inexplicable attraction - called dopamine) eating shit more than you ENJOY eating icecream. Your FEELINGS (desires, wants, needs and past experiences) drive your behavior and your choices.

I actually think you are making too much of a meal of what is a common normal feeling among most human beings, who are not afraid to admit it to themselves. Doesn't mean that people everywhere will opt out by topping themselves. Many do, but many others don't feel it an absolute necessecity.

Yeah. Because you refuse to accept that you STILL HAVE A CHOICE. Despite what your feelings are telling you
You still have lots to learn about yourself. Start there - look in the mirror and introspect about your feelings.

It's a poor distinction, its your distinction and thats your groove, but don't expect others to agree with it.

Immaterial. Any distinction is a CHOICE! And so you can CHOOSE to eat shit instead of icecream.

Humans aka fictional characters within the dream of separation don't get to decide anything...for one very good reason, go figure!

Bullshit. You decided to type a response to my response.

YES, the natural way, when life says its time to exit the pop stand. Life dictates when it is time to go. Death will come only when its meant to come and not one second before. Killing yourself by suicide is not natural.

OK so if I kill you, is that 'natural'?

Your just over thinking this, its a typical activity of the philosopher to do this, to anal-ise everything to death instead of keeing life simply pious and sacred.

No, moron. I am not analysing anything.I am pointing out the CHOICE. That exists - right in front of you! And your refusal to EXERCISE YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Like I said - you are a passenger on the Titanic. And you are OK with it.

I am not. I am in control of my own life to the best of my abilities.

I strongly disagree. But each to their own.

Animals have been dying silently and gracefully for millions of years.

Gracefully competing with each other to stay alive. Hunters and hunted. Those at top of the food chain - and those at the bottom.
Those who adapt to avoid natural selection and those who don't. Given your love for nature - I am guessing you fall into the latter box.

To society - you are a useful idiot: http://factmyth.com/what-is-a-useful-idiot/

[Dontaskme]

Again, this has nothing to do with what S57 is talking about.

Why don't you let S57 speak for him/herself on matters of his/her opinions? I don't think you are a mind reader.

I'm not a mind reader, I'm just saying I understand his point of view. Not that I'm speaking for him, I'm just resonating with him thats all.

Then you clearly don't understand it. I like to get all realistic and practical about knowledge. I USE knowledge to serve my own goals.

Good for you, but I only understand what I understand, and I understand not by what knowledge informs me, but by what feels right or wrong instinctively.

Sure - you can log onto Google and you will acquire a lot of "know THAT" knowledge. But you aren't going to get any "know HOW" knowledge.

I do not require knowledge to KNOW HOW to be. To be is a given, one doesn't have to know how to be, one simply is..that's all that is real in my world...everything else I need to know is on demand , like remembering to go to that appointment I booked, which is retrieved from memory.

And thus you fail to spot your own ignorance. WHY is it a "no-brainer". Maybe do you do ENJOY (a feeling!) eating shit more than you ENJOY eating icecream. Your FEELINGS (desires, wants, needs) drive your behavior and your choices.

It's a no brainer to me in my direct personal experience, thats all I'm saying. I'm not saying its what everyone would choose.

Yeah. Because you refuse to accept that you STILL HAVE A CHOICE. Despite what your feelings are telling you You have free will.

You only think you have a choice, feelings are non-local and cannot be pinned down to reside inside an entity called a human. The illusion that there is a ''someone'' to have free will is not there in reality, there is no one choosing to do anything, there is just choiceless choices made by no one.

Bullshit. You decided to type a response to my response.

No thing and everything is typing these responses. There is no separate entity anywhere in reality except the illusory ''thought'' there is.

OK so if I kill you, is that 'natural'?

The assumed belief that there is ''someone'' there inside a body that can be killed, is an illusory ''thought'' arising nowhere, here now, to no thing and no one. There is no such thing as a ''someone'' ...nothing was born so nothing can die. Knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality.

No, moron. I am not analysing anything.I am pointing out the CHOICE. That exists - right in front of you! And your refusal to EXERCISE YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Like I said - you are a passenger on the Titanic. And you are OK with it.

I am not. I am in control of my own life to the best of my abilities.

Maybe, in the fictional story / the dream of separation this is all true, but in reality there is no one or thing to choose or do anything. Doing and choosing is happening all by itself, by reality it self one without a second, you are that. There is no separate you to do anything, the separate you which is just an idea is being done.

Gracefully competing with each other to stay alive. Hunters and hunted. Those at top of the food chain - and those at the bottom.
Those who adapt to avoid natural selection and those who don't. Given your love for nature - I am guessing you fall into the latter box.

To society - you are a useful idiot: http://factmyth.com/what-is-a-useful-idiot/

I AM the last idiot.

Truth is unattainable, If you say you know...you don't. It's all made up, including this....

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[TimeSeeker]

Good for you, but I only understand what I understand, and I understand not by what knowledge informs me, but by what feels right or wrong instinctively.

I agree - we ARE instinctive creatures. On many topics and many matters. Most of all - morality. And if it felt instinctively right to eat shit instead of icecream - then that is what you will CHOOSE.

That does not detract from the fact that the choice between icecream and shit still exists. It merely speaks to which one you are going to choose.

But if you can put your feelings aside for 2 seconds - you can ACTUALLY choose the other one (even though you might not like it).

I do not require knowledge to KNOW HOW to be. To be is a given, one doesn't have to know how to be, one simply is..that's all that is real in my world...everything else I need to know is on demand , like remembering to go to that appointment I booked, which is retrieved from memory.

But you do require knowledge on HOW TO LEARN in order to become something better. Mother nature didn't make you perfect
If you want to grow, and learn and become the best version of yourself - you have to learn HOW.

It's a no brainer to me in my direct personal experience, thats all I'm saying. I'm not saying its what everyone would choose.

And I am not telling you what you should choose either. What I am saying is that the choice exists. Right in front of you. You get to make it.
So if you think non-existence tastes much better than existence. The choice is right in front of you...

You only think you have a choice, feelings are non-local and cannot be pinned down to reside inside an entity called a human. The illusion that there is a ''someone'' to have free will is not there in reality, there is no one choosing to do anything, there is just choiceless choices made by no one.

You really go out of your way to deny your ability to choose. That is why I call you indecisive. How do you ever order food at a restaurant given the 100 CHOICES on the menu?

No thing and everything is typing these responses. There is no separate entity anywhere in reality except the illusory ''thought'' there is.

So you think I am an illusion? OK

I AM the last idiot.

Truth is unattainable, If you say you know...you don't. It's all made up, including this....

Sorry. That is a realization I made 15 years ago. So you you aren't the last idiot. More like the last to come to that realization. You are a little slow.

Yes. The word 'truth' is made up! But you still need to exist in reality. Make decisions. Function! Food and shelter - all those things from Manslow's hierarchy. And so even if "this" is made up - your hunger, thirst and need for sleep are not.

And you can prove me wrong by stopping to eat, drink and sleep for 30 days.

But I suspect that your INSTINCTS to survive will kick in No matter how "infinitely more preferable" you claim non-existence is.
That's why so many people can't follow through with suicide. When the time comes to switch yourself off - your self-preservation instincts begin to take over your rational brain

[Dontaskme]

Timeseeker, you speak in dualist material literal manner, I don't, I speak in nondualist, non-literal non-physcial manner.

We will never agree.

So I will not be engaging any more in this merry go round of ego verses non-ego dance of I'm right and you are wrong name calling (mind games)

Bye for now.

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[TimeSeeker]

Timeseeker, you speak in dualist material literal manner, I don't, I speak in nondualist, non-literal non-physcial manner.

False dichotomy and a straw-man!

Dualism is RECOGNITION of the mind-body problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem
There are FOUR WAYS to solve it. That thing I keep pointing out that I call CHOICE!

Choice A: body before mind (Physicalism)
Choice B: mind before body (Idealism)
Choice C: Monism
Choice D: Dualism

We will never agree.

I chose option C. I HAVE FREE WILL. I have CONTROL over my feelings and instincts (mind) . And so I get to CHOOSE whether I live or die.
I have control over my body AND mind!

So I will not be engaging any more in this merry go round of ego verses non-ego dance of I'm right and you are wrong name calling (mind games)

Bye for now.

Of all the possible choices you could've made - you made the worst one. You chose not to choose! You have chosen like I have chosen - Monism. And then you gave up your free will!
But worst of all - you think that everybody who doesn't speak like you is a dualist. Because you think only YOUR monism is right

You are a passenger. A useful idiot.

[ToddStoddard]

It seems you're conflating terms. You seem to claim that people are evil because they don't always support democratic institutions.

You say:

"It was also the ordinary average working class German citizen, who voted for Hitler.

It was the majority of the Turks who voted for Turkish dictatorship (giving Erdogan far more power than a democracy would usually allow) and in countries like Denmark, Germany, France, Netherlands etc. turks attacked other turks who disagreed with Erdogan."

Many people in the world today, and most throughout history haven't actively supported Democracy. That doesn't make them bad. Democracy isn't always the best form of government.

Specifically, conditions in Germany before Hitler were truly horrible making it impossible to lead a normal life. Inflation was so bad that people needed to take a whole wheelbarrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread, for instance. Communists mobs roamed the streets attacking people. Also, most ordinary Germans didn't know about what the Nazi's were doing to Jews.

I'm not too familiar with Turkey, but a military coup preceded Erdogan's crackdown. That along with millions of refugees and terrorists destabilizing the country would make many reasonable people turn to a strong ruler for protection.