All Circular Reasoning is Linear

[TimeSeeker]

An external observer might notice but not necessarily every single time
That is however purely hypothetical since it would not actually happen
It is not required anyway since it is only for my benefit and no one else

OK, but how do you know that your improvement in your ability to understand complex matter, which results in greater awareness IS benefitting you?

What is the observable (by YOU!) effect of "benefit" ?

[surreptitious57]

It is benefiting me because understanding has been achieved and that is the goal as pertaining to knowledge
To acquire as much knowledge as possible before I pass from the state of consciousness to non consciousness

[TimeSeeker]

It is benefiting me because understanding has been achieved and that is the goal as pertaining to knowledge

OK, but that is circular again. I asked you "What does it mean to understand?"

You said (paraphrased): understanding causes awareness causes benefit.
I asked: What is the observed effect/benefit?
You said: understanding.

So understanding causes understanding? I am not sure that's useful.

How do you know that you have acquired understanding?

To acquire as much knowledge as possible before I pass from the state of consciousness to non consciousness

How do you know that what you have acquired knowledge?

[surreptitious57]

I know when ever I have acquired understanding and knowledge
For when I have I can acquire more of quantity and / or quality

[TimeSeeker]

I know when ever I have acquired understanding and knowledge

You know when you have knowledge?!?!?

How do you know that you know you have knowledge?

For when I have I can acquire more of quantity and / or quality

How do you know that the thing you are acquiring more of is knowledge?

How do you know what knowledge is?

[surreptitious57]

One knows knowledge because knowledge is facts and facts are objectively true
One does not do no belief and one does not accept anything as true that is false

[TimeSeeker]

One knows knowledge because knowledge is facts and facts are objectively true
One does not do no belief and one does not accept anything as true that is false

That't not an answer. You are just giving me the textbook definition.

How do you KNOW (for yourself) that what you have READ and INTERPRETED is "true objective facts" a.k.a knowledge?

There is a non-zero probability of you mis-reading/mis-understanding/mis-interpreting. We are fallible creatures using a fallible language to communicate our ideas.

How do you KNOW (for yourself!) that what you have ACCEPTED is true and not false?

[surreptitious57]

Knowledge can be verified to determine its truth value which is how one knows that it is actually true
Anything which is not true and demonstrably so will be rejected as that is the default position for me

[TimeSeeker]

Knowledge can be verified to determine its truth value which is how one knows that it is actually true
Anything which is not true and demonstrably so will be rejected as that is the default position for me

Now we are getting somewhere Verificationism!

How did you verify that the thing you have acquired is knowledge?

[surreptitious57]

One verifies knowledge by checking with sources that all stated facts are true
Any facts that cannot be verified cannot be accepted as true even if they are

[TimeSeeker]

One verifies knowledge by checking with sources that all stated facts are true
Any facts that cannot be verified cannot be accepted as true even if they are

And we've fallen back into the void What do you consider to be sufficient verification?

In your paper XYZ you say "the Moon is X km away from Earth". Is that true? And your source says "Yes".
Is that sufficient?

Lets try it! There is a green cup of tea on my desk.

Is that true and factual? Go ahead and verify!

[surreptitious57]

You check the sources till you are completely satisfied that verification has been achieved
You dont simply take their word for it because you might have no idea how reliable that is

[TimeSeeker]

You check the sources till you are completely satisfied that verification has been achieved
You dont simply take their word for it because you might have no idea how reliable that is

What are your criteria for satisfaction?
What kind of checks would you do?

Like I said: I have a green cup of tea on my desk.

[Atla]

We can show a cat, you know those little animals running around, they purr and bite.

I didn't ask you to show me a cat.

I asked you to show me The Whole Universe (which includes all those little 'animals running around, that purr and bite' ).

You even had to deny that the universe is there at all, to avoid the issue (which makes you nonexistent too). Some people with the information insanity can go to such great lengths.

I denied the universe is there? Wow. You are resorting to lies now to win an argument? That's just a douchebag move!

Did I say the universe does not exist? No I did not. I am pretty sure YOU said that thinking that I said that. I think you called it... projection?

I am simply asking you to SHOW me The Observable Universe. The WHOLE thing!

You are having to resort to strawman after strawman. Surely it's a sign that you are actually wrong?

You continue to deny that the universe is there at all, it's just a concept in your head and doesn't refer to anything. But of course without the universe, there would be no head with the concept of the universe in it.

Everything is just a concept to you, so there is no universe, just concepts. )

Still a weak attempt to avoid the actual issue, which isn't the above.

Just so that we can avoid wasting each other's time with this back-and-forth (if it is possible) - I am going to tell you my strategy, so you can consider your responses/arguments more carefully.

I am going to keep contradicting you and showing you things you can't do until you admit that you are wrong and until you concede that concepts (like "The Universe") exists and that they are real Even though they are 'just' in our heads.

Such "strategies" are for intellectually dishonest people. You "contradict" me with strawman arguments, because you are too afraid to admit that your whole worldview is based on something made up. And that self-interpreting computer languages being objective is bullshit. I care much less about winning arguments than about seeing the world as it is.

[TimeSeeker]

I denied the universe is there? Wow. You are resorting to lies now to win an argument? That's just a douchebag move!

Did I say the universe does not exist? No I did not. I am pretty sure YOU said that thinking that I said that. I think you called it... projection?

I am simply asking you to SHOW me The Observable Universe. The WHOLE thing!

You are having to resort to strawman after strawman. Surely it's a sign that you are actually wrong?

You continue to deny that the universe is there at all, it's just a concept in your head and doesn't refer to anything.

WOW. You still continue to strawman me! Have you no shame? The concept of The Universe refers to VERY MANY quarks, leptons and electrons.

I am asking you to show them to me. ALL OF THEM.

But of course without the universe, there would be no head with the concept of the universe in it.

Everything is just a concept to you, so there is no universe, just concepts. )

Still a weak attempt to avoid the actual issue, which isn't the above.

But without a strawman - you have no argument

Such "strategies" are for intellectually dishonest people. You "contradict" me with strawman arguments, because you are too afraid to admit that your whole worldview is based on something made up. And that self-interpreting computer languages being objective is bullshit. I care much less about winning arguments than about seeing the world as it is.

Ok. I cannot tolerate such dishonesty and character assassination any longer.. I am just going to call you out now. You are a bullshitter!
Who cannot admit when they are wrong. Probably because you lack the ability to introspect.

Show me The Universe. Show me the COLLECTIVE NOUN of quarks, leptons and electrons.

Show me the CATEGORY in YOUR HEAD which you have labelled "The Universe".

I told you that you were projecting the avoidance, but you didn't believe me.